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Cleopatra
Joined: 28 Jun 2003
Posts: 3657
Location: Tuamago Archipelago
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 Posted: Tue May 09, 2006 10:31 am Post subject: |
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Even if all things were equal regarding visas and sundry 'restrictions', I wouldn't put Libya and KSA in the same class as regards tourist destinations.
Libya has some of the best Roman ruins in the Mediteranean, among them the famous site of Leptis Magna. It is also said to have some of the most spectacular desert scenery anywhere in the world. I don't think KSA has anything on that level, and what attractions it does have are very spread out, requiring internal flights.
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| I could, however, actually see the 5* hotels being allowed eventually to sell it, in say 5 years?) |
Personally, I think it will be much longer than that before they relax the alcohol rules in KSA, if they ever do so. After all, countries like Kuwait and Libya - both of which are in many ways much more 'liberal' than KSA - still have a complete ban. In any case, I don't think KSA is seeking to attract the type of tourists who can't contemplate a week without beer.
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a weekend on a western compound, drinking authentic home-brew etc. Wonder what I could charge them all?
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If you want my opinion (and you probably don't) I would say that the 'tourists' should charge you for putting them through such an ordeal! |
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veiledsentiments
Joined: 20 Feb 2003
Posts: 17644
Location: USA
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| Posted: Tue May 09, 2006 12:41 pm Post subject: |
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 Of course, there is no explaining what some people will pay for, and there are those people who just want to be able to brag about which countries they have ticked off on a list.
BTW Bebsi, some friends of mine who have repeatedly and extensively traveled in the Middle East visited Libya lately and loved it. Not an easy tourist spot... BUT... there is no competition in my book... I'd love to go to Libya, but have zero interest in KSA. 
I think I agree with Cleo on the booze issue. I doubt that we will see that in our lifetime - even in hotels.
VS |
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dmb
Joined: 12 Feb 2003
Posts: 8397
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| Posted: Tue May 09, 2006 12:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Can women go scuba diving in KSA? |
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Rin
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 173
Location: Doha
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| Posted: Tue May 09, 2006 1:51 pm Post subject: |
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| dmb wrote: |
| Can women go scuba diving in KSA? |
Yes, but they have to cover themselves in special "swim abiya." Unfortunately the clothing hasn't been perfected and most women drown. 
Just kidding, you stole my question dmb, how are you supposed to go diving when you can't wear bathing suits??? |
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thrifty
Joined: 25 Apr 2006
Posts: 1665
Location: chip van
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| Posted: Tue May 09, 2006 4:37 pm Post subject: |
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| There are Islam friendly bathing suits on sale in KSA. |
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crashartist1
Joined: 06 Jun 2004
Posts: 164
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| Posted: Wed May 10, 2006 4:18 am Post subject: |
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Women can swim and dive and snorkle in KSA without a problem.... There is a catch, only on private beaches. Supposedly 'Saudis' are not allowed to enter some of these beaches but the don't control it very well. When I go to the beach with my wife there is the family side and the single side. The family side still have many women fully covered head to toe and a lot of single men come walking by and just stare, it's mostly just children playing in the water which makes me wonder, what are they really looking at?
There are some nice beaches up in Abhour, like Salehia, where you need to have a fat bank account to get in because it is a beach resort filled with villa's and not just a regular beach. If you do not have a villa inside you need an invite from someone to get in.
poorESLteacher |
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Bebsi
Joined: 07 Feb 2005
Posts: 958
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| Posted: Wed May 10, 2006 9:14 am Post subject: "We're all going on a summer holiday..." |
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So the usual Saudi myth machine has taken over, fuelled mainly by people who actually live or have lived in KSA and should know better!
For your information, there is an active women's scuba-diving club in Jeddah. I don't know where they go diving, but I do know that they dive from both boat and shore, the latter somewhere around Obhur, north of Jeddah.
And yes, they wear wetsuits...tight ones, not loose fitting black ones!!!!!!!!!
Any truly enlightened and informed opinions on this would be most welcome.
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| I'd love to go to Libya, but have zero interest in KSA. |
Do I take it you haven't been to either, VS? I suggest checking them both out, although of course that brings us back to the old visa-for-KSA issue  .
Cleopatra wrote:
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| Even if all things were equal regarding visas and sundry 'restrictions', I wouldn't put Libya and KSA in the same class as regards tourist destinations. |
My goodness! Have you been to Libya? Or for that matter, the tourist attractions of Saudi? [No, NOT the ones involving western compounds and home-brew ] I mean Madain Saleh, the ruins at Dumat Al Jandal near Sakaka/Al jouf, the spectacular mountain scenery and traditional mud houses of Asir, the mountain village of Habala, the stations of the Hejaz Railway, Taimah Fort, the Wahaba Crater, the Red Sea (under it, that is)? The list goes on....
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| Libya has some of the best Roman ruins in the Mediteranean, among them the famous site of Leptis Magna. It is also said to have some of the most spectacular desert scenery anywhere in the world. I don't think KSA has anything on that level, and what attractions it does have are very spread out, requiring internal flights. |
I've been to Leptis Magna, quite spectacular but as it happens I personally preferred the Roman ruins at Jerash, in Jordan (apart from the annoying hustlers, that is). I've also been to Sabratha, not that far from LM, just a few hours. Both trips were in 2004, and back then at least, services ranked between utterly dreadful and non-existent.
Their really interesting desert scenery is mostly in the extreme south, which can only be accessed either by a two-way road in pretty awful condition or by internal flights. Libya is a big country, and by "extreme south", I mean well over a thousand Km from the mediterranean coast. Speaking of the latter, a drive along any of the roads in that region (the most populous, being coastal) will give an insight into Libyan environmental awareness...there is rubbish strewn everywhere. The levels of roadside filth made KSA look positively clean.
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| In any case, I don't think KSA is seeking to attract the type of tourists who can't contemplate a week without beer. |
This is exactly my point. Maybe they will allow the big hotels to serve alcohol in a few years, maybe not, it is hardly the issue. Someone interested in seeing the sights of KSA isn't going to mind doing without their booze for a week or two.
A bigger question here is whether certain conservative Arab countries will invest in tourism as a serious economic activity. If so, they will need to change certain things if they are serious about tourism. KSA MUST make the visa process easier if it wants to attract non-Muslim tourists, and dare I say it, Europeans and North Americans are the potential big-spenders. I believe that the higher echelon Saudis are indeed interested in developing tourism. They will have to make changes, but that does not mean turning their country into a debaucherous den of iniquity, licentiousness, sex drugs and rock 'n roll! They must change the system of access to the country, and further develop services like hotels and car-hire, while seriously improving customer care.
Libya is definitely interested in tourism, and it is much easier to access. They, on the other hand, must concentrate a lot more on services and customer care. In a nutshell, both countries are fascinating destinations in terms of attractions.
To readers of this forum, what should be of greater interest is the range of attractions in KSA. There are indeed many and I've given a list above, but most of them are concentrated on the western side. While things have quietened down lately, security is still a big issue for westerners, and this will actually be one of the greatest drawbacks to their fledgling tourist industry, at least in teh short-term.
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| If you want my opinion (and you probably don't) I would say that the 'tourists' should charge you for putting them through such an ordeal! |
Is that not what most of the readers of this posting are doing, getting paid for being in Saudi?  |
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veiledsentiments
Joined: 20 Feb 2003
Posts: 17644
Location: USA
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| Posted: Wed May 10, 2006 2:41 pm Post subject: Re: "We're all going on a summer holiday..." |
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| Bebsi wrote: |
| but that does not mean turning their country into a debaucherous den of iniquity, licentiousness, sex drugs and rock 'n roll! |
Well darn... and those are my main vacation requirements!!
On a slightly more serious note, no I haven't been to either, but I've done enough years around the Gulf to know that I wouldn't have any interest in paying a premium price to do a group tour of KSA. Not my style of travel at all... and too much familiarity with the area already...
VS |
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Bebsi
Joined: 07 Feb 2005
Posts: 958
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| Posted: Wed May 10, 2006 9:35 pm Post subject: Hooray, hooray, it's good ol' KSA |
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| I've done enough years around the Gulf to know that I wouldn't have any interest in paying a premium price to do a group tour of KSA. Not my style of travel at all... and too much familiarity with the area already... |
But VS, how can you compare KSA with the rest of the area? I understand you've never been in Saudi itself...trust me, it's NOT like the rest of the Gulf area. It is truly unique!
ON A MORE SERIOUS NOTE, it has lots that would appeal to a middle-aged, middle-class European or North American tourist who has already traveled a lot and is looking for a unique cultural experience. There ARE many attractions, but they do require considerable organisation to travel to due to their often isolated location (part of the charm, I would argue) and as I've already said, services in KSA certainly need improving. So, of course, does the simple act of getting there!!
But those already there at least are getting paid for being there. I wonder what salaries there would be like if it turned into another Thailand???? |
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jonks
Joined: 29 Jan 2006
Posts: 1240
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| Posted: Fri May 12, 2006 5:29 pm Post subject: |
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There was a half page editorial in the Taipei Times (and who knows how many other) papers yesterday promoting tourism to Saudi.
The international marketing of the Kdgm has begun in earnest. |
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Queen of Sheba
Joined: 07 May 2006
Posts: 397
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| Posted: Mon May 15, 2006 10:14 pm Post subject: Re: Costa del Saudi |
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| Bebsi wrote: |
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| They even have the right to come and work in any other Gulf country, though the only ones that seem to take advantage of it are the Bahrainis. |
Why would a Bahraini want to go to Saudi? A bit like the story I once heard of a Brit who was caught exporting Sid across the causeway...TO Bahrain!!
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What? Bahrainis come to Saudi Arabia all the time, many have family ties and ancestry that they trace back to KSA. It happens a lot in the Dammam area, but it's certainly not restricted to that region of Saudi. In addition, my Bahraini friends go to Jeddah for shopping, as its often cheaper than Bahrain. They also have religious reasons to come to Saudi and some Bahrainis work in Saudi and go back and forth on a regular basis. An expat may think Saudi is stupid because of its lack of "topless beaches" and "booze," which I seriously doubt will EVER be allowed in Saudi. Basic culture lesson 101: Saudi is the home of Makkah and they MUST always and forever show their dedication to Islamic law - it has over 90 million followers who look to KSA to care for their holy sites! Religion aside, Gulf nationals have a deep respect for Saudi and its economy and history, not to mention financial hand outs. Bahrain is tiny, with an artificial modern culture - ever been inside their homes? They are linked to Saudi and Iran in every way. They enjoy traveling and staying connected to their ancestry in Saudi and Iran, but Saudi in particular since its an easy drive with the causeway. Yes there are bars and restaurants in Bahrain, and things that appeal to expats and others alike, but most Bahrainis dont like all the tourism citing the traffic it creates as reason to escape on the weekends, so many opt to come to Saudi for frequent visits since its much bigger with more nature and historic spots. These countries and cultures are deeply linked, all of the Gulf countries are linked for that matter thru tribal lineage, and their respect and interest in KSA is unquestionable. |
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Bebsi
Joined: 07 Feb 2005
Posts: 958
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| Posted: Tue May 16, 2006 9:34 am Post subject: Saudi -v- Bahro |
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QoS, what insight? I'm cancelling my Time and FT subs! I never knew Saudi was an economic power in the region, or an icon for Muslims 
Didn't you notice my smilies? I was being tongue in cheek. Yes, of course there are many reasons for Bahrainis to visit Saudi, including the ones you described. When I was in the eastern Province, I used to go to Bahro regularly for a few beers, a movie and a meal with a bottle of wine. However, I often noted that I would have hated to live there. Apart from its material rewards, I just found Saudi easier to work in, and Bahro had its place as a "social venue".
I worked awhile in Doha, and many of my students used to travel to KSA at weekends, mainly to visit relatives, but some guys actually had camels over there. They also preferred it for desert picnics, as Qatar is very small and becoming somewhat built-up. For real desert...and very beautiful scenery (tho you have to go to the western part for that)...Saudi comes out trumps. |
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Queen of Sheba
Joined: 07 May 2006
Posts: 397
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| Posted: Tue May 16, 2006 8:09 pm Post subject: |
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Ah yes, I forgot about that Pulitzer winning analysis all things Saudi, Time - the lone reason Americans are so brilliant with foreign policy. Seriously, though, I have found it�s hard to tell who knows what about the Middle East and KSA in particular. Most ESL teachers I know don�t know anything about Saudi. Let me give you examples, they hike up their abayas to their bare knees when they walk or sit, they don't even bother reading a book about Islam or Middle Eastern history or Arabic women. Then they ask silly questions and say goofy things like "I am going to tell my students to stop saying Inshallah." Seriously. That teacher even confided in me that she was surprised they hired her in the first place.
I am not saying there aren't hard working intelligent teachers in KSA, I am only saying that we may actually suffer the most because we do care, we do have some work experience and knowledge, and YES we should be recognized and commended for it. Yet patting each other on the backs will get us nowhere in the real world. We all want and need to be recognized for our skills and abilities by our employer. We have to face it, while there of those of us that actually care about teaching and want to learn about the culture we are teaching in - putting our prejudices aside for a while - many are here because its better than being a stay at home wife, or for the benefits not offered elsewhere. All of those reasons are valid and a lot more admirable than those who merely take advantage of the new system and rich society with nothing more than their native English accent and/or skin color or religious affiliation. The good old, "I am white so I can teach" arrogance, or the "I am a native speaker so I can teach," or the other one I have referred to the "I am Muslim so I can teach in Saudi Arabia." What matters is your merit, knowledge and ability. Anything else is running a bit of a scam in my opinion.
Anyway, maybe it�s just me and the anti-gold star attitude I have, but the smirks and smiles don't do much for me in the way of sarcasm on forums. Perhaps in due course I will get used to the bebsi, barking and libton tea out here. |
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thrifty
Joined: 25 Apr 2006
Posts: 1665
Location: chip van
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| Posted: Tue May 16, 2006 8:51 pm Post subject: |
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Poor old Crash Artist 1 is right.
Earning 8 or 9 thousand with pathetic holidays and no benefits. |
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Bebsi
Joined: 07 Feb 2005
Posts: 958
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| Posted: Tue May 16, 2006 9:31 pm Post subject: Zzzzzzzzzzzzz |
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| Anyway, maybe it�s just me and the anti-gold star attitude I have, but the smirks and smiles don't do much for me in the way of sarcasm on forums. |
Relax, teechr, mafi mushkillah!!
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| Perhaps in due course I will get used to the bebsi, barking and libton tea out here. |
Bebsi What have I said or done now???? I may be barking mad, but where does Libdon tea come into it?
Maybe I should just let the prim QoS and the bitter, boorish, culturally illiterate Prodiigy go at each other's throats!!!! So different and yet so alike! Kindred spirits, united in the art of rabid rant!! |
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