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Professional Dialogue Between Chinese and Foreign Teachers
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vikdk



Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676

PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2006 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dearest midlothian mapleheart spelling and grammar are one thing - but aslong as ones communication and meaning get through who gives a proverbial F..... Laughing But as far a Rwrite goes - well our Swiss Shakespeare certainly is very creative with the English language - one need say no more Laughing Laughing Laughing (sic)(sic)(sic)

Quote:
Many FTs experience this situation. It's not just his personal experience, as many of us have "unruley" (sic) kids in our classes. Some of your comments lead me to believe you have very limited understanding of the Chinese English classroom. You think he's an "amatuer" (sic)? Do you truly believe that the Chinese have accepted western methods and teaching philosophies and there is no longer a "devide" (sic)? Some of their methods certainly are "unpaletable" (sic)m and require further "developement" (sic).

Hey Middy as a staunch conservative back to basics Canadian teacher you must remember your own school days - (I reckon like me you're also a bit long in the tooth). Just look back to those dim distant past of your own schooldays - can't you see how the teacher then was also the master figure of the classroom, how fact was drilled into supposedly empty brains, how fear and discipline rather than exploration and interest were often the factors that motivated the student to classroom attention - and how good examinations and getting into the "right schools" was the name of the game!!!! In fact so much of those "good ol'days" back home remind me of the Chinese schools I see today. Of course so much is also different, but the figure head of the teacher as a master rather than a supporting guiding figure is very apparent in both todays China and the British education system of 40 years ago - with result rather than understanding being the ultimate goal. But then again this isn't surprising - the basic foundations of education is very similar in china to any other so-called developed western countries with education being arranged in a tierd system which ultimately gives a person the chance to progress to a further education beyond that which is officialy required by the law. That education seems to me to be very backward in comparison with the west - also no big surprise - like much of the social infrastructure here, it seems primitive, but very much on the move!!!!

Which takes us to the question of educational developement - dearest Middy how do you think education will develope here - do you think the Chinese will perservere and further develope their own perticular brand of pedagogy of master teaching??? Or will education bow to the needs of industry and society, and start to try and produce out of its student flock those type of problem solvers who are so desperately needed in the developing high-tech society - you know similar problem our Western educational systems really started to face in ernest about 20 years ago (systems that also are more politcaly free and have had far more time to gear up to change). You see Middy at the heart of this question is the actual make up of society the chinese are living in - an high tech industrial one - not so very different from those found in the west (of course excluding politics) - a society that (economically and technology wise) has been so influened by the west, that the educational system can't help looking towards western guidance for method and insperation - Since both educational systems have the same goal of feeding society with sufficient qualification to keep the wheels of commerce rolling smoothly. Devide - no things are getting much closer - just hard for many of us FT's to see it since we only look at this question though the subject of English teaching - surely education is lot more that that!!!!

Any thoughts on this Middy - or have you just come into this thread as R's watch dog Laughing Laughing Laughing
PS please check my spelling and report back Laughing Laughing Laughing
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Midlothian Mapleheart



Joined: 26 May 2005
Posts: 623
Location: Elsewhere

PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2006 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Edited to remove offensive content.

Middy


Last edited by Midlothian Mapleheart on Mon May 29, 2006 5:16 am; edited 1 time in total
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Leon Purvis



Joined: 27 Feb 2006
Posts: 420
Location: Nowhere Near Beijing

PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2006 11:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Professional Dialogue Between Chinese and Foreign Teache Reply with quote

Shan-Shan wrote:
This past week I've taken the initiative to observe my Chinese counterparts at the university where I teach.

The purpose behind this initiative is to, hopefully, generate dialogue between myself and the Chinese English teachers. The observations are my way to become familiar with we all do in the classroom...

This first step -- seeing what we all do -- is intended to lead into meetings/discussions on teaching approaches/ ideas on learning language that I hope to put together after the summer break.


Thank You.


FWIW, at my state-run college, the Chinese English teachers aren't interested in talking to the FTs. Aministrators cannot be found, and if you can get an email address from one, it's usually a Hotmail address or a .123 or some such thing. Nobody wants official dialogues.

The FT liaisons are jokes in my neck of the woods. I work for a second state-run college, and neither my home college nor the one to which I have been farmed out could provide me with a curriculum, a book, or a description of students' past experience or performance. It was, "Here you are. Here's your schedule. Here's your roster. Buh bye."

No. Wait. Nobody said buh bye. I forgot. I was handed my schedule and the guy stared at his computer screen until I asked, "Is that all?"

He replied, "mmmm hmmmmm."

I won't tar the entire system with the same brush, however. I had better experiences in a state-run university in another province a few years ago. Hopefully, my experiences where I am now are much different from the majority of the board members' experiences.

But a meaningful dialogue among FTs and Chinese faculty at my school? Forget it. The administration at my school can't even keep the schedules straight or inform FTs (or students!) of schedule changes in a timely manner. I strongly suspect that most of the Chinese English teachers can't speak English. The few times I have actually FOUND English faculty members in the Foreign Languages department, they ran into the bathroom.
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vikdk



Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676

PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2006 3:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
That is why FTs will be valuable here until they discover how to create their own acceptable version of language teaching. German engineers have been a hot item here for quite a while, but as the Chinese learn to create their own systems, they are being called upon in increasingly fewer numbers. The same applies to foreign architects and plant designers.

please dont confuse machinery and construction with the intricacies of even the humblest student - that's a typical Chinese mistake trying to produce, batch style, the finsished student product, as if the human being can be treated as a machine - if only it were so simple!!!!! No, so much of that which is valuable in education, is to do with Human experience - and what better way of experiencing for the purposes of learning a language than haveing a native speaker of that language, who's also a skilled and trained teacher, in your classroom? VW cars are nuts and bolts, language is a little more than that. FT's will always be in demand here as they are in other Asian countries who have had many years to develope their own perticular brands of English teaching!!!

Quote:
there are two concurrent education systems here, an urban one and a rural one

quite correct - but its the urban private variety, fuelled by fee paying, that seems to be leading the way. And those people who are paying those fees are able to access more and more information about education - through internet forums, magazines and books and prehaps most importantly from having a knowledge of first hand experience from those who have come into contact with education in the west. China is no longer hidden away from the rest of the world - with the result that many are demanding changes in education that are based on western teaching principles - if there is money behind these demands they will be met!!!

Quote:
I think you err when you consider China to be 1) high-tech or 2) deeply influenced by the West. These are very superficial details and are applicable only in developed, open areas.

China is a developing country - a country that is developeing to become a major competetor in the western economic markets - with a minority, but growing minority starting to "enjoy" a kind of lifestyle with which we as westerners can now identify with - and say - "geeez not so different than back home". But what do you think the that poor majority wants - more water buffaloes - no they want catch up time as well - and who's the role model for this catch up play - well just like their like rich counterparts - I think they've chosen us Laughing Laughing Laughing
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Roger



Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 9138

PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2006 3:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would seem that Chris Crossley has had an employer whose efforts at integrating FTs came closest to what we are hoping for. Good on him!

I have recently read in an Education magazine of some Hong Kong student in the U.S.A. who said that life for a student at an U.S. university was almost the very opposite of what life at a Chinese university was: in the West students interrupted professors or lecturers, bombarding them with questions or actually questioning their statements - which she found to be extremely unsettling since as a Chinese she was used to sit meekly on her chair and read from the teacher's lips.
Of course, that woman did learn something useful from the U.S. system, and that is, to be a thinking independent self. A person that asks relevant question. Someone who explores avenues not pointed out by Authority (whoever that is, but in China, Authority always is spelled with a capital 'A').

So, if a Chinese student (albeit from Hong Kong!) has such acculturation issues, why shouldn't we find it difficult to go along with the flow in China's educational establishments?

The fact of the matter is that China's goals are rigidly defined along old concepts and ideas handed down from COnfucius' times: "respect" (better make that 'fear'!) of Authority!
Until the Cult Rev teachers were "respected", that is, feared, and that has fundamentally changed since then. Teachers these days no longer enjoy the social rank they used to enjoy; in fact - and I have this from the horse's mouth - many perceive themselves as pursuing a career in spite of themselves. THis certainly is true of many who teach in the wealthy coastal regions, especially here in Guangdong.

Even in Hong Kong with its, or in spite of its westerised school system, teaching and learning for EXAMS is the top priority, and that can hardly be blamed on the Brits: it's just that Chinese minds are adamant, set in stone for good. Why do they push their own children to attend ENGLISH-MEDIUM schools even though they know through their own experience that communicating in a foreign tongue is a torture for themselves and much more so for their kids? It's a total lack of insight into child pyschology, but then again who expects Chinese parents to care for their kids' real interests?

At least in Hong Kong, there are more professional contacts between NETS and their Chinese counterparts; in fact, I hear from many of them that they resent attending teacher meetings held in Cantonese, which they do not normally understand.
The Hong Kong NETS programme is actually in a shambles now after several years of euphoria and the sudden realisation it has an enormous wear and tear effect on FTs. (The turnover of FTs is inordinately high in spite of excellent pay!). One of the contributing reasons - again! - might be that Chiense do not view with magnanimity foreign professionals making suggestions or giving advice on how to improve things. Those FTs were officially labelled "agents of change" - and now this appellation has, apparently, become a curse!

And that's what it might become in the mainland too: I am sure many valid attempts have been made to give some badly-needed input to our Chiense employers, but in the end it all has been ignored. The Chinese cannot plan ahead and are given to making spontaneous, impulsive decisions; committing themselves to a long-term goal is illusory! The State defines long-term goals - five-year plan goals, for example. Individual deans and headmasters and even presidents of universities often have a chequered past - kicked out of school during the Cult Revolutikon (how old is the headmistress in your school? Where was she in 1972?).

There is so much we would like to discuss, if only to hear the rationales for such anomalies as:
- Why are classes sooo large?
- Why are there no serious and meaningful exams except exams that
merely test memorised stuff?
- Why don't our Chinese colleagues adapt to more modern classroom
styles, for example by using English as a practical instrument rather
than just as an academic subject?
- What are you doing in order to identify suicidal tendencies and
actually prevent suicides?
(Don't think this is unrelated at all!).
- Why do parents with zero English speaking skills monitor their
own kids' English "progress" by dint of asking them to translate one
English word into a CHinese vocable?
- Why are there no Parent-Teacher Associations in which we FTs could
play our role?
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vikdk



Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676

PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2006 9:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
There is so much we would like to discuss, if only to hear the rationales for such anomalies as:
- Why are classes sooo large?
- Why are there no serious and meaningful exams except exams that
merely test memorised stuff?
- Why don't our Chinese colleagues adapt to more modern classroom
styles, for example by using English as a practical instrument rather
than just as an academic subject?
- What are you doing in order to identify suicidal tendencies and
actually prevent suicides?
(Don't think this is unrelated at all!).
- Why do parents with zero English speaking skills monitor their
own kids' English "progress" by dint of asking them to translate one
English word into a CHinese vocable?
- Why are there no Parent-Teacher Associations in which we FTs could
play our role?

I've just had a final warning from the mods about being a wee bit hard on R - after reading that last R effort I sincerely hope I get banned Laughing Laughing Laughing
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