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Roger
Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 9138
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 Posted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 6:05 am Post subject: |
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| vikdk wrote: |
However these jobs often demand - to satisfy the standards of donators - real qualified teachers - so some FT's here who believe money is not the incentive to work are hard pressed to find jobs where they can make a real social contribution since, for reasons of qualification, these jobs may not want them.
So the best that can be said for the low paid type of work they take - you know the make the boss rich type schemes - is that this employment at least feeds and clothes them and allows them to bask in the importance of being called a teacher. |
This is utter self-pitying nonsense! No one forces anyone to work in China for "a pittance"; and doing a meaningful job in underdeveloped parts of China is an honourable stint for energetic young folks who want to spend some time doing something useful without using up their savings.
All the vast rest that backpacks from one country to another should do so - as that other venerable poster said: in their capacity of 'vacationers'.
No one among us is "enriching" our bosses, these fat cats: they get rich from the tuition revenues their own customers pay, not you. They pay you to do them a service, and they pay you according to this country's standard of living. I don't see why FTs should be entitled to more.
And once again, since a certain poster is still trying to exalt his own position as a "qualified" kindergarten specialist: very few of us work in your line of work; as for myself, I have done your job, and with success, and that success has also been recognised by my colleagues and superiors at that time. I learnt my ropes on the job, and I had to learn pretty fast; I was lucky in knowing what China's education is not doing right so that I could do a better job at kindergarten level. Now if you were to work in a university, would you be able to adapt quickly enough?
You are partially right in saying most FTs are not suitably qualified and that's one more reason why they should be grateful for landing jobs here in the first place. As for myself, I have done far better while teaching in Hong Kong, and I earned a very good testimonial from an international school there.
If I were to compare teaching in the mainland and teaching at a western-style school (such as you might find in HK or back home for that matter!), you get paid more for a lot more responsibilities and troubles. In HK, you have to work with your students towards a goal defined by education authorities that will also check by dint of examination whether you have achieved that goal with your learners. There is no such responsibility here in China - which shows how much less pressure is piled on you.
In western schools you are dealing with more assertive students that drive many veterans out of the classroom and into other professions or careers. No Chinese students shoot their way into a school, no class bullies are the norm here; best of all: you have almost no administrative duties! Ask a HK teacher about that, and ask them how they cope with filling in report cards, marking papers, keeping tabs on underachievers...
You get a reasonable amount of money for teaching in HK but you get no reasonable amount of peace of mind, freedom and a good night's sleep there! England's teachers claim to be overworked and underpaid; Hong Kong's NETs are frustrated and show it by not renewing their contracts. |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 7:10 am Post subject: |
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on a hypothetical sideline - imagine coming here 10 years or so ago with great hopes for future betterment within this education industry, but with the real result being that nothing really tangible came of those plans, and after 10 years or so you are still doing the same menial badly paid psuedo teaching work because thats the only way to make a dependable living here. You know getting stuck here because you havn't any where else to go, or anything else to do - suppose you could always site that culture excuse as the reason to go on 
newbies beware this place seems to be not only a cultural honey-pot but also a trap for those who take too long in deciding where to make the next turn  |
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william wallace
Joined: 14 May 2003
Posts: 2869
Location: in between
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| Posted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 7:15 am Post subject: Dear Vikdk... |
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nil
Last edited by william wallace on Sat Nov 24, 2007 6:17 am; edited 1 time in total |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 7:54 am Post subject: |
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WW i always knew you were a hypothetical type of character - good on ya mate I'll splash out 5RMB contribution towards your Zimmer frame when the time comes  |
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Roger
Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 9138
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| Posted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 8:42 am Post subject: |
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| vikdk wrote: |
on a hypothetical sideline - imagine coming here 10 years or so ago with great hopes for future betterment within this education industry, but with the real result being that nothing really tangible came of those plans, and after 10 years or so you are still doing the same menial badly paid psuedo teaching work because thats the only way to make a dependable living here. You know getting stuck here because you havn't any where else to go, or anything else to do - suppose you could always site that culture excuse as the reason to go on
newbies beware this place seems to be not only a cultural honey-pot but also a trap for those who take too long in deciding where to make the next turn |
We are being sanctimonious once again, aren't we, vikdk? Who says FTs are not achieving anything here? What would they achieve in a rigidly set environment such as their home country? What can teachers change in England, for example? Aren't they civil servants that have two bosses - the schoolmaster and the taxpaying public?
ANd aren't we, vikdk, overly judgemental, prejudiced and preposterous in our claim that some teachers have no alternative to being FTs in China?
You are a terrible "educator" or "educationist", really: with your self-centredness you can't be an ideal role-model for young learners! Why then are you staying put in China if that's what you are doing?
I agree just a tiny bit with you: there are a huge number of hopeless characters roaming the world in search of a temporary job, and in their lack of imagination, they can only think of "teaching their way around the world". I tell you that's most definitely not the case of people who disagree with you, including myself.
I am still proud of what I achieved at that kindergarten; I have had excellent vibes with colleagues at another kindergarten I worked as a part-timer later on. Yes, indeed, the pay was much higher there but that wasn't the reason why I loved the post first of all; I loved the socialising experience, the gaiety of the human resources it was my job to knead and to mould, and it was the warmth that flowed from them to me and back. Do you get anything like that in a British or Danish kindergarten?
There are obvious downsides to teaching in China; absence of a career ladder is one; also the fact that quality control is done by incompetent locals; another is the job insecurities and instability.
But if you don't like it here you can always get out of teaching and become involved in something else. It is then that some guys learn how to appreciate the relative comfort and easyiness of being an FT!
You, vikdk, obviously aren't experienced enough in living in China or even in working in your own field here! |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 9:09 am Post subject: |
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sorry Roger - you see when I read this - something also posted today in another thread relating to china
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| The police here are amateurs, the judiciary is composed of ideologues and amateurs, and the schools are run by despots; in the end it's a "us Chinese versus foreign Barbarians" game. |
I just wonder how some people stick it out for so long- I'm in total awe of the staying power that must be involved |
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Lobster
Joined: 20 Jun 2006
Posts: 2040
Location: Somewhere under the Sea
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| Posted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 3:14 pm Post subject: |
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I came here for both a salary and culture. Unfortunately, I haven't seen much of either one. 
RED |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Thu Jun 29, 2006 5:21 am Post subject: |
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| you aint seen no chinese culture RED - well that's how it usually works - you see the kind of culture we bump into most commonly here, usualy rushes up on you, first pushes you, then knocks you down, and finaly rushes away - you're still dusting yourself down before you ever have a chance to look for it, but if you're lucky you might hear a spit or two |
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Lobster
Joined: 20 Jun 2006
Posts: 2040
Location: Somewhere under the Sea
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| Posted: Thu Jun 29, 2006 12:04 pm Post subject: |
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I hope that when that culture finds me, it doesn't steal my wallet while I'm lying on the ground. 
RED |
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poof
Joined: 23 May 2005
Posts: 161
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| Posted: Thu Jun 29, 2006 12:26 pm Post subject: |
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I'm also put off by the relatively low salaries in China. However, sometimes I toy with the idea of coming to teach in China in order to either study martial arts or Peking Opera. I would probably want to live in Beijing, just 'cus I like the big cities.
The questions:
Has anyone had experience of teaching and studying in either of the above fields?
Is it really easy to find a martial arts class or opera class in any district of the city?
How much can you expect to pay for your classes?
What times of the day do the classes typically run?
Are there real bona fide masters in Beijing?
What would be the best types of teaching jobs to accommodate being able to study martial arts or opera?
Would it be better still if I just didn't come to teach, but just come on a tourist visa? Is it affordable and viable for someone on tourist status to live reasonably comfortably?
FYI, I can speak and read some Mandarin, I have 6 years Korean martial arts training as well as 6 yrs of teaching exp.
Thanks for any info! |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Thu Jun 29, 2006 1:36 pm Post subject: |
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| hey RED yur wallet - if you use a bit of common sense - is actually pretty safe - since common-a -garden theiving, like many other professions here, operates on a pretty amatuer scale - no its your social norms that get the battering |
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Lobster
Joined: 20 Jun 2006
Posts: 2040
Location: Somewhere under the Sea
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| Posted: Thu Jun 29, 2006 3:35 pm Post subject: |
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Wow, that's a relief to know my cash is fairly safe. Being devoid of almost all social norms, it looks like I'm almost impervious inside my shell.
RED |
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klaus
Joined: 19 Oct 2005
Posts: 109
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| Posted: Thu Jun 29, 2006 5:46 pm Post subject: |
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| poof, your six years of korean martial arts training should stand you in huge stead for the rigours of chinese martial arts. just ask tofuman what its done for him! |
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Gorak
Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 69
Location: SW of Khabarovsk
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| Posted: Fri Jun 30, 2006 12:09 am Post subject: |
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| poof wrote: |
Would it be better still if I just didn't come to teach, but just come on a tourist visa? Is it affordable and viable for someone on tourist status to live reasonably comfortably?
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In Hong Kong, you could easily pick up a 6 month or 1 year tourist or business visa and live/work/study in China. In my Chinese city (am not in Beijing or Shanghai), using real estate agents to help; Foreigners can sign 3-6 month lease contracts for apartments. Clean, comfortable apartments can be had here starting at $ 100 US per month. As for eating expenses, if you are a vegetarian, you basically eat for free as vegetables are so cheap here. In a word, it should be affordable and viable for someone on a tourist or business visa to leave reasonably comfortably in China.
Should you teach and study at the same time? Would it not be the perfect Life to be a tourist and student at the same time?
88 words about teaching in China. You are right about the low pay. The point I want to make is that Chinese employers have expectations regarding their FTs. If they are not met, FTs will directly and/or indirectly feel the heat/pressure to change. So, low pay does not equal low expectations. It could be a full-time job, emotionally and otherwise (just read Dave's) to satisfy your Chinese employer. Why not save your intellectual and emotional energy for your personal interests? If you really want an experience as a FT, drop in for a guest lesson or two (FTs would be happy to invite you)!
Roger (the one and only on Dave's) would disagree with the preceding paragraph as he thinks that it is easier for teachers to work here than in their native countries. A topic for another thread. I just think it is comparing apples to whatever. |
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jammish
Joined: 17 Nov 2005
Posts: 1704
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| Posted: Fri Jun 30, 2006 5:15 am Post subject: |
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You definitely don't come to China (the mainland) to experience Chinese culture, as there is no Chinese culture in the mainland, it was all abolished during the Cultural Wevolution.
If you want to experience Chinese culture, you are better off spending time in Chinatown in most Western cities, or getting the appropriate qualifications and working in Hong Kong. |
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