|
Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Students and Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
NorbertRadd
Joined: 03 Mar 2005
Posts: 148
Location: Shenzhen, Guangdong
|
 Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 7:25 am Post subject: |
 |
|
| I only seek to warn people off a bait & switch scheme. Excuse me for trying to be helpful. I know about the boards here and the absurdity of trying to send out a simple warning. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Roger
Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 9138
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 9:04 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Ger wrote: |
To the OP, it seems that you are experiencing "Chinese culture" first hand...
(see the last entry of the link cited below)
http://www.eslcafe.com/forums/job/viewtopic.php?p=429559#429559
you are also experiencing little help in addressing your problem by writing about it on this forum.
I wish there was something I could do for you, but there isn't. You will have to think of a way to get your salary from the school and execute the plan, otherwise you may have to put it down to loss.
I am glad that you posted the name of the school/college on this forum for the rest of us to see, so that we may be aware of the problem as you have experienced it and avoid the school if we so choose.
However, schools and colleges of the cheating sort are very sophisticated these days, as they use "agents" to hire teachers for them, and teachers are not told the name of the school until after they have signed a contract.
Therefore, in my view, blacklisting schools/colleges has only limited affect.
I hope I am not accused of "trolling". |
You are taking sides here, are you?
I for one am not, but I too have to say: Norbert has signally failed to come up with relevant information; his piece reads like a tirade with no objective foundation in facts.
He says he accepted a job paying 6000 although the STANDARD for SHENZHEN was 8000; first of all: he has never answered the question why he accepted the job under those conditions, then pilloried the employer. If he was desperate to get a job then he has no right co claim he was being shortchanged!
He did say the employer owes him 2000; I find this mystifying!
His employer no doubt paid him his monthly salary in one go; 2000 looks like a deduction: was that the penalty? Why did the employer slap a penalty on Norbert?
We can only guess at that - bad-mouthing his employer now may be his last attempt at taking revenge for not always getting things his way. So what happened during his tenure at that institute?
I do fullybelieve his employer didn't treat him too well, but that's subjective; in the absence of tangible and convincing problems I fail to see why we should accept at face value his post.
For example his allegation that the standard salary is 8000 cannot be upheld!
And other tertiary institutions of learning don't treat teachers better; Shenzhen's oldest university, Shenzhen University, is a notorious place of discord.
The rest of his lamentations simply is criticising for criticism's sake: mouldy walls in his home and other shortcomings - serious? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
frank d
Joined: 07 Dec 2005
Posts: 155
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 3:27 pm Post subject: Post warnings at your own peril... |
|
|
Yes, NorbertRadd, you see the chronic problem at this forum...
There's too much "Kill The Messenger" going on here. Why would FTs make this stuff up and post it??? Certain posters (one who just went from 8998 postings to 9027 in a mere two days!!) seems to require that he be personally satisfied with the credibility of all FTs accusations.
This is an extremely unsupportive forum for FTs who have typical workplace problems and complaints about working in China. (Although most of us know the things we say are true!) This site is dominated by one particular, prolific poster who decides whose complaints are spurious and whose are not. He has many protectors here. I recently posted a complaint about him, and within a few hours, Poof! my posting had disappeared! (Happy now???) But it seems he can pounce and pounce all he pleases upon others. There's a whole S&M aspect to this place. Frankly, "I haven't got time for the pain!" Good luck to you, and all the others who are only trying to warn others of unpleasant and unfair working and living situations. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Roger
Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 9138
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 4:48 am Post subject: Re: Post warnings at your own peril... |
|
|
| frank d wrote: |
Yes, NorbertRadd, you see the chronic problem at this forum...
There's too much "Kill The Messenger" going on here. Why would FTs make this stuff up and post it??? Certain posters (one who just went from 8998 postings to 9027 in a mere two days!!) seems to require that he be personally satisfied with the credibility of all FTs accusations.
This is an extremely unsupportive forum for FTs who have typical workplace problems and complaints about working in China. (Although most of us know the things we say are true!) This site is dominated by one particular, prolific poster who decides whose complaints are spurious and whose are not. He has many protectors here. I recently posted a complaint about him, and within a few hours, Poof! my posting had disappeared! (Happy now???) But it seems he can pounce and pounce all he pleases upon others. There's a whole S&M aspect to this place. Frankly, "I haven't got time for the pain!" Good luck to you, and all the others who are only trying to warn others of unpleasant and unfair working and living situations. |
Yes, we happen to KNOW posters that make up their teary-eyed stories! We also happent o know posters who solicited moeny out of fellow posters and disappeared for good (no pun intended but it's really good to see such people disappear).
We also happen to know a lot of grumblings are not worth reporting and have much to do with immaturity on the part of the grumblers; inadaptation to a new place, lack of tolerance, inability to cope with the most common challenges in a foreign country quickly dissolve the vitamins of certain people.
Now if you want me to complain:
The fire brigade roared down the main street of this ltitle town; a fire had broken out; the house is now uninhabitable. I must blame this on China because it is their house.
Also, while I was sitting in this cafe the electric power to the whole neighbourhood was cut to prevent electrocution. This inconvenienced me ENORMOUSLY as I could not post my experience in this forum at that moment.
OUtside it RAINED and no one offered me an umbrella, how ungrateful of the Chinese towards me!
Finally, I had to pay for my breakfast and coffee - that really worked me up!
I think the Moon is more attractive than China! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ger
Joined: 25 Feb 2004
Posts: 334
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 5:18 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Roger wrote: |
You are taking sides here, are you?
|
No, in the spirit of "Chinese Culture": I am standing with one leg on both fences! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
NorbertRadd
Joined: 03 Mar 2005
Posts: 148
Location: Shenzhen, Guangdong
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 6:29 am Post subject: |
|
|
The only penalty I suffered was taking them at their word. I did volunteer work at the school and took students out to dinner. I showed up for all my classes on time and prepared.
The Shenzhen Institute of Information Technology reneges on their agreements.
The going rate for a bachelor's is RMB8000. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
OGFT
Joined: 24 Jun 2006
Posts: 432
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 7:06 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| Yes, we happen to KNOW posters that make up their teary-eyed stories! |
Who is we and what posters are you talking about?
Wouldn't it be safer to advise all as if every story was the God-honest truth. That way any one experiencing this kind of wrong doing will benefit from the advice given on this board.
And theft comes in many forms, as always the poster must beware, but the accusation of fraud must be a well informed one.
I would hope the Roger doesn't point his finger at a poster on the same basis of evidence he uses identify Americans as rednecks. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
frank d
Joined: 07 Dec 2005
Posts: 155
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 7:37 am Post subject: |
|
|
Roger wrote:
[quote]Yes, we happen to KNOW posters that make up their teary-eyed stories! We also happent o know posters who solicited moeny out of fellow posters and disappeared for good (no pun intended but it's really good to see such people disappear). [/quote]
R, Since you always demand clarity and proof, would you mind using your posting no. 9036 (you're probably way beyond that number by now) to explain this latest, cryptic accusation of yours? Please enlighten us lowly, complaining commoners! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Roger
Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 9138
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 8:31 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Ger wrote: |
| Roger wrote: |
You are taking sides here, are you?
|
No, in the spirit of "Chinese Culture": I am standing with one leg on both fences! |
You should have noticed the tendency of the original poster to exaggerate his personal plight without really offering useful, accurate pieces of information. Have you ever had to complain about "mouldy" walls in a Chinese flat?
He has not been able - or willing! - to clarify his issues beyond making overly simplistic complaints that sounded like someone was whining.
I am still curious to know why he can claim he was not paid the "standard" - whatever that means!!! - "Shenzhen salary". I have never heard of such a thing!
He also failed to say why he thinks he is owed 2000 yuan.
Furthermore: was he being employed legally or as a freelancer???
To me, he came across as someone with too high expectations that went unfulfilled; rather than accepting his own responsibility for nurturing unrealistic hopes he went into an attack borne obviously of vindictiveness.
If you have 2 legs - as I assume you do! - where is your second leg now standing, since your first one is straddling the fence between the two sides in question? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Roger
Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 9138
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 8:38 am Post subject: |
|
|
| frank d wrote: |
Roger wrote:
| Quote: |
| Yes, we happen to KNOW posters that make up their teary-eyed stories! We also happent o know posters who solicited moeny out of fellow posters and disappeared for good (no pun intended but it's really good to see such people disappear). |
R, Since you always demand clarity and proof, would you mind using your posting no. 9036 (you're probably way beyond that number by now) to explain this latest, cryptic accusation of yours? Please enlighten us lowly, complaining commoners! |
My little milky toothy baby you,
I have noticed a few posts of yours in which you have shown no restraint in making harsh judgemental statements about people with whom you happen to disagree; why should I treat you my sweetie, any better?
Do I owe you any clarification on my previous post??? Why you, and not just the public at large, my honeyboy?
I can point you to a poster that has regularly graced these columns for a personal story about FTs asking for, and getting, money from him (after not being entertained so charitably by the rest of this forum). I am not sure, though, whether that poster would be willing to discuss his story with someone who is hiding behind a pseudonym.
I too have been accosted on occasion by FTs for money and other forms of help.
Let's just be very, very normal if that is at all possible, and "normal" means: realistic: there is a lot of chaff masquerading as FTs!
You know it as time goes by and you have had dealings with some of them... I have known lots, my sugarloaf! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Roger
Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 9138
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 8:42 am Post subject: |
|
|
| NorbertRadd wrote: |
The only penalty I suffered was taking them at their word. I did volunteer work at the school and took students out to dinner. I showed up for all my classes on time and prepared.
The Shenzhen Institute of Information Technology reneges on their agreements.
The going rate for a bachelor's is RMB8000. |
So, what caramba! et merde alors! were you doing as a "volunteer"? Were you being used as a full-time teacher, or were you just being used as a nanny in some workshop or camp?
Why did you take your students out and treat them to a meal? Is that, or was that, part of your job???
Did you expect to be refunded for that???
And what makes you claim holders of a Bachelor's are due 8000? And why would you qualify to make that much (not, of course, assuming that you signed a contract that took heed of the fact that you do have a Bachelor's and you failed to make your expectation of a higher salary known to your employer).
Mysteriously, you also were calling the basis of your employment an "agreement"; that is not a 'CONTRACT". Why this difference? And did your employer renege on WRITTEn promises? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
danielb
Joined: 08 Aug 2003
Posts: 490
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 9:51 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Roger, can you point out the difference between agreement and contract for us please. I may be a little dim. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Lobster
Joined: 20 Jun 2006
Posts: 2040
Location: Somewhere under the Sea
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 10:22 am Post subject: |
|
|
If you signed a contract (as opposed to a verbal handshake agreement) to receive 8000 RMB per month and wound up only receiving 6000 RMB per month, then you were cheated. If you signed a contract for 6000 RMB per month and then found out the "going rate" was 8000, you cheated yourself. You have returned to this thread several times, and each time you've refused to provide any details. OK, we'll accept that this school sucks and you're justified in your complaint, just because you say so.
RED |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
adamsmith
Joined: 27 Jan 2006
Posts: 259
Location: wuhan
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 8:24 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| normally I do not agree with roger - but that is basically because of fundamental difference in our viewpoints but in this case he does bring up some very relevant point as red has pointed out. my question is why do you think a bachelors degree is worth so much in china. Most jobs with only a bachelors in any location in china pay much less than the stated 8000 avg. I was offered many positions in shenzen teaching business foundation courses with an MA and almost Phd and most of them were only in that range. Needless to say I did not take them as I know what I am worth. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
frank d
Joined: 07 Dec 2005
Posts: 155
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 10:25 pm Post subject: I know what you mean...! |
|
|
| Yes, adamsmith, it�s a very frustrating situation� I have two masters degrees, years of previous teaching experience in America, and three year�s teaching experience in China. I also have dozens of letters of praise from students and parents, and yet, when it comes time to discuss salary, the schools try to offer me the EXACT same salary they offer teachers holding a bachelors degree and little or no teaching experience. When I balk at this, they try to appeal to me with, �but you are a �good� teacher.� �We want you because you are a �good� teacher and the students love you.� I usually tell them that if the salary is the same for me as the �bad� or �poor� teacher, then they should have the �bad� teacher. It�s maddening! And in fact, in Nanjing, salaries are dropping significantly. When I first arrived here in 2003 (with no teaching experience in China) I was automatically offered 8000RMB per month (as were those with no prior experience anywhere and a B.A. degree). Now it is standard for training schools to start full time FTs at 6000RMB per month (promising 6500RMB after three months). Forget it! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
This page is maintained by the one and only Dave Sperling.
Contact Dave's ESL Cafe
Copyright © 2018 Dave Sperling. All Rights Reserved.
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
