Job Discussion Forums

[Nutmegger]

I'd be surprised if relevant authorities bothered reading online petitions.

[MrCAPiTUL]

Honestly, it is hard for Brits to get visas to stay in America. When I taught in public school, I remember hearing the stories. This one girls father actually had to buy out a business rather than open the one he had intended to be able to enter the country. Teachers may have it slightly easier because there is such a high demand for skilled educators in America's compulsory school system. Where most teachers teach in Europe in terms of ESL isn't compulsory, and honestly there isn't a real shortage of English speakers in Europe. Also note, that whilst a teacher may be eligible for a visa here, that doesn't mean the average school board will hire them from overseas.

[johnnyappleseed]

IT is my understanding that EU countries decide their own policy as to immigration issues.
Since there is not one but many different policies towards immigration in the EU, it seems to me that a petition like this would be even more fruitless than if there actually were an EU-wide policy on immigration.

I am an American, BTW, living and working legally in the EU. In some countries it's not that difficult. It really mostly depends on the country's need for teachers, I assume(there may be other issues.) And the supply of 'em.
There are far fewer EU applicants than N. American at the school I work for.
There are definitely NOT enough European English speakers willing to teach ENglish in the EU, as somebody above said. I strongly disagree.

As far as the American/British English debate goes, it's always interesting to me, these discussions. In my experience it is the British teachers who really push the difference, saying that they are strict about teaching "British English", correcting an American vocabulary, claiming to have the right accent, or whatever.
North Americans tend to teach a combination, especially since many textbooks are written in British English.

But even more, the perception of their being some vast difference between the dialects(as if there were only two dialects in ENglish!!) actually comes more from students and their perceptions or what they've heard about ENglish and that has created the entire "American/British" marketing terms.

I think it is best for students to be exposed to a variety of accents.

[naturegirl321]

[spiral78]

He's in a small town in the Czech Rep, where US citizens are still legally able to work. As you know!!

[spiral78]

johnnyappleseed, I always try to be careful to draw a distinction between :

'older' EU member countries where North Americans and other non-EU member citizens, in almost all cases, CAN'T get legal work permits,

and 'new' EU member countries where they generally still CAN.

Yes, each country has its own laws. It was possible to get work permits in Belgium as a US citizen a few years ago, for example, at the same time it was impossible to do so in the Netherlands. But Germany, France, Italy, Spain, and the other big targets are generally near IMPOSSIBLE.

The wording of your post is very likely to mislead newbies who are hoping against hope for some little loophole into a country where they've got no realistic chance of working legally. By lumping all of the EU into one set, you may (I'm sure not meaning to) very likely create false hopes.

I think it's extremely important on this forum to give newbies seeking info REALISTIC information about their chances. Moving abroad is always a bit risky, and just a little bad luck or wrong info can leave someone in a real mess.

I am not getting kicks from dashing the dreams of North Americans who dream of 'moving' to France or Germany or Italy. But going there, very often on a financial shoestring, with unrealistic expectations is NOT the way to go. And, unfortunately, many newbies don't take the time to research extensively before taking off.

It is reasonable and realistic and supportive to steer newbies towards countries where they CAN work legally. The Czech Rep, where you are, falls clearly into the category of 'new' EU member. So do most other Central European countries, at least for now. Please don't feed false hopes.

[johnnyappleseed]

It is possible to work as an American legally even in big cities in the Czech Republic. And not that difficult.

Create false hopes? If by saying that it is possible to work in the EU is creating false hopes, then isn't saying it's impossible to work in the EU being unnecessarily negative (as well as untruthful?)

Well, I am not trying to create false hopes. Let me explain:

The thread is about petitioning the EU in hopes that the EU will change it's immigration policy(especially for Americans). I'm saying: that's a silly idea(as is the debate surrounding it) as there is not (as far as I know, and I'm happy to be corrected) one policy regarding immigration in the EU, but twenty-seven different policies and, in fact, it is possible to work in the EU anyway.

NOw it is more difficult to do in, say, Spain than in the Czech Republic. I don't know how much more difficult, personally, but that's not what the thread is about.

I see what you mean, perhaps, about drawing a distinction betwene "old" and "new" EU states, but the OP did not draw that distinction and as far as I know, the distinction doesn't--or wouldn't--really work LEGALLY anyway in this instance and what we're talking about is--or would be--a legal issue: namely an immigration policy that does not in reality(as far as I know! ) exist.

But the OP did not say that he/she was trying to get a petition going for France; he/she said that it was a petition aimed at the entire EU--or actually "Europe" but I'm guessing he or she didn't mean Belorussia... :

And then a bunch of people jumped on talking about "reciprical" actions and how the EU should change it's policy(which does not, in reality, exist!) only if the US reciprocates towards EU citizens, and that that is obviously not the case because somebody knows somebody who had a hard time getting a visa in the US...

But all I'm saying is the entire question and debate is moot because:
a) there is no EU immigration policy.
b) Americans CAN work in the EU(though it's easier in some countries than others) so a petition calling for the EU to let Americans do what they can actually already do in the EU just doesn't make sense. It's sort of like petitioning the EU to let American citizens with valid driver's licenses drive in Europe.

Those are my main points.

Also, I wrote, very plainly "In some countries, it is possible."

Otherwise the other points I made(responding to the assertion that the EU has enough ENglish speakers, for example--something that is plainly not true from my vantage point) are rather secondary.

[spiral78]

I'm not disagreeing - I'm just asking you to take a bit of care with wording, because the newbies browsing along often don't take time to read the whole thread, and seize on lines like "Americans can work in the EU," which, while technically true, comes with caveats.

You're entirely right that the OP is about petitioning the EU as a whole - but witness Naturegirl's quick question about how you got to work in the EU as an example of how this can be misleading.

[johnnyappleseed]

Sure, but look at what she quoted, which is from my post: it clearly states "In some countries..."

" In some countries it's not that difficult. It really mostly depends on the country's need for teachers, I assume(there may be other issues.) And the supply of 'em."

How much more specific do I have to be?
The most I could say is "the new EU countries are easier to find a job in", but I just didn't deem it necessary, since that is not at all what this thread is about. I was addressing the point.

If somebody takes "EU" to mean "old EU" I don't think that's as a result of me "encouraging false hopes." That's a result of somebody taking false hope that isn't there.

Since it's a secondary point(the main one being this issue of petitioning the EU to change it's "immigration policy") I don't know how specific I have to be. To be honest, I am not acquainted with the immigration policies of each and every EU country, other than the vague notion that in the old EU countries it's harder to find a job as an ENglish teacher than in the new ones. I could have said that, I suppose, but again: it's not what the thread is about, so I didn't think it was necessary, and my quoted phrase seems to more or less say that anyway.

To be honest, technically, what I say is true for all EU member states--technically it's possible to work in ANY EU member states--just that it's harder to get a job in some countries than others. In all countries certain requirements must be met, of course, even in the "new" EU.

[spiral78]

I'm not arguing with your facts, or with you.

Just noting, once more, that if posts are loosely or generally worded, newbies, and even educated teachers like naturegirl, are easily misled.

I'm a US citizen and I got legal work in the Netherlands, which I rank as 'impossible.' The circumstances weren't one in a thousand - they were one in a million.

I personally think it's important to draw this kind of distinction on public forums frequented by newbs, but your personal approach to this is entirely up to you, of course.

[spiral78]

Go check out the Germany forum for a current thread by a young American who's heading there in hopes of finding legal work in Munich.

It's not my job or the job of the forum to discourage her from doing this, by any means, but she's asked for feedback on her chances, and people need to know what they are facing, realistically -

These kinds of fuzzy notions can land unwitting newbs on the streets, with just a little bit of bad luck.

[johnnyappleseed]

Sure, I see your point! But...I just don't know. I think what I wrote on this point was fairly clear:

I'll quote it again:

In some countries it's not that difficult. It really mostly depends on the country's need for teachers, I assume(there may be other issues.)

Perhaps I should have stressed the fact that if in some countries it is not that difficult, it is in fact more difficult in others--but since that wasn't at all the point of the thread, and is, in fact, a totally different topic, I didn't really see the need and thought that what I said covered it pretty well.
At any rate, it isdefinitely a point well and thoroughly made at this point.

[scot47]

I suspect that American legislators have bigger things on their mind than asking the EU to be nice to US EFL teaschers.

And what makes you think that the EU states would listen anyway ?

[spiral78]

You mean the States don't have that kind of influence worldwide??!!

[scot47]

In my experience most people in the EU want nothing to do with US Imperialism and its running dogs.