Job Discussion Forums

Tezcatlipoca · Joined: 17 Jul 2006 Posts: 1214

Given their tremendous inefficiency and the cost of the degree they require me to have? Yeah...

Although, there are two Chinese study advisors at my current position that are absolute godsends. Knowledgeable, diligent, and very capable... the students learn quite a bit from them. I would not object to them making my salary.

Outsida · Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 7:17 am Post subject:

I think that given the most salient fact that they're doing the same work as us, they should be paid the same. If we go figuring background into it (they paid less for their degrees), we end up with affirmative action in reverse - it's being used to disadvantage them.

Besides, if you figure it in terms of equivalent purchasing power (i.e. a dollar buys about the same in Australia as a yuan buys in China), they pay around the same for a degree as we do (in Australia, at least).

cj750 · Joined: 27 Apr 2004 Posts: 3081 Location: Beijing

GeminiTiger · Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 9:57 am Post subject:

I am very happy in my current situation, 14 working hours a week in a small city for 4,000 rmb a month, 1 month paid holiday, a small travel bonus and round tip airfare. Free fully furnished two bedroom apartment, with 800 rmb credit towards utilities each month.

This is not exactly top of the ladder either..

GeminiTiger · Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 10:09 am Post subject:

Outsida · Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 1:36 pm Post subject:

Forgive me. I don't quite mean the same work as us... but they do teach English. They work an equivalent number of hours. And in comparative terms, they DID pay the same for their degrees.

And then we could argue that a Harvard student should be paid more, wherever he is, than a student from Berkley. An American teacher should be paid more than an Australian teacher because American degrees cost more.

I think it's only fair that they should have their salaries RAISED to meet ours. Of course, if they're getting extra benefits, then we should be able to grab some of those goodies too. The fairness thing cuts both ways.

hairuo · Joined: 19 Mar 2006 Posts: 473 Location: Somewhere in China

In the two colleges that I taught, the Chinese English teachers did not work as many hours as the foreign teachers. There were a couple of exceptions to the rules, but most them only worked 10 hours compared to the 16 the foreign teacher worked.

Outsida · Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 10:59 pm Post subject:

fair enough... pay 'em accordingly.

cj750 · Joined: 27 Apr 2004 Posts: 3081 Location: Beijing

working at BIBS last year I often noted that the Chinese teachers disappeared into their office in the afternoon where they would study English or listen to music or "America Family"..several times I got great photo opportunities to capture the teachers sleeping, while Foreign teachers shouldered most of the effort, from play yard safety issues to lunch room vigilance. Truthfully I have not seen diligence or even a good work effort from the Chinese teachers who I have worked with..they do as little as possible. Now some of the overseas programs the office has worked very hard to achieve the goal of placing the student overseas...these staff member's job depend on this and they will run around like chickens with their head cut off to get paperwork in order but in normal teaching position, they seem to have the same work ethic that many in China share.

englishgibson · Joined: 09 Mar 2005 Posts: 4345

Good points above CJ Smile

I must agree with you since I've been in China long enough and seen such instances many times Wink

For Chinese workers what often matters is that "how long they are at work" or "whether they are showing any SIGNS of WORKING" Laughing

Efficiency is not in a Chinese dictionary Laughing

... but hey I am sure that there are some exceptions Wink

Now, there's an excellent heading to this thread and we might come up with a better discussion if we stuck to it in my opinion. Smile

THE TRAP is there. THE SOLUTION sometimes is rather painful. THE FAO CONTRACT is highly ambiguous, unclear and it puts the employer in a tremendous advantage. THE NON-FAO CONTRACTS are sometimes not legally bind and sometimes farcely worded due to the Chinese knowledge of English/intentions Wink

. Further more, the lawlessness in China that yields to people with guanxi usually puts most of the employers in advantage too. Wink

However, there is "a light" there and I must say that some Foreign Affairs Offices are willing to provide ..hmmm..."assistance" to FTs in China. At times, the employers are unwilling to go through that office. Wink

The OP of this thread's got a fairly good intention, although a rather "revolutionary"...bitter....or shall I say inexperienced approach.

Guys, don't shoot please Cool

Peace
and
cheers and beers to us Very Happy

Steppenwolf · Joined: 30 Jul 2006 Posts: 1769

Steppenwolf thinks this is merely vain braggadocio by one of the few FTs that enjoy different working conditions.

Personally Steppenwolf knows a good many FTs that work for considerably less than what the O.P. claims to be "low pay".

And considering the unending influx of poor, debt-ridden and underqualified foreign "teachers" in search of a "job" or a "gig" here, the Chinese employers have little difficulty in recruiting their white faces.

You may elect to disagree with Steppenwolf, of course, but then again...

mjlpsu · Joined: 03 Oct 2005 Posts: 128 Location: NJ to Shenzhen

Outsida · Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 8:57 am Post subject:

... and do without my imported fig yoghurt? Never!

Tezcatlipoca · Joined: 17 Jul 2006 Posts: 1214

20,000rmb = $2,500.

So, you saved 2500rmb per month. What was your total salary? How much would you have saved in the first 8 months as a teacher in your home country?

Sure, it's possible here to save money.

Another point to consider is that foreigners mostly exist outside of the guanxi system for some period of time. Additionally, we are not granted holiday bonuses on the same level (if at all) as Chinese teachers.

So, let's compile a list of reasons why Westerners aren't being paid enough versus why we should be getting what Chinese teachers make.

Pay Westerners More:
1. Increased cost of degrees in the West.
2. Difficulty of moving thousands of miles.
3. Cost of moving thousands of miles.
4. Increased efficiency when working.
5. Providing a service that can't be met locally.
6. Increased cost of retirement (or other post-China living) expenses.
7. Fewer non-contractual insentives (guanxi, bonuses, etc.).
8. Lack of legal protection (this covers a wide range: visas, releases, etc.)
9. Other cost of living expenses (stores that charge Westerners more).

I'll let someone else present the other side of the argument.

Tezcatlipoca · Joined: 17 Jul 2006 Posts: 1214

I just did the math for me...

In 17 1/2 months in China, I've made a total of 102,095rmb (by the end of August). I have saved about 20,000, although I've also bought a few not-so-cheap things that will go back to the States with me... a suit, a tuxedo for my wedding, my fiancee's wedding dress, and some other things. I also brought about 5,000rmb with me and transferred another 5,000rmb from savings at home when I hit a rough spot last year.

As I've worked at 3 different companies and also freelanced for a time, it's difficult to figure out what my average workload would be.

For the first 3 months and the last 3 months, I worked 40 hours per week with 20-25 teaching hours per week. When I was freelancing, I was teaching about 6 hours a week. At the middle job, I was averaging 26 1/2 hours per month.

So, average salary was 5,834 for 76 hours per month (18.2 hours per week). That's with no housing provided. My housing was 1,400rmb per month for the first 16 months. For the first 3 weeks I did have company provided housing and for this month I'm paying 2,000rmb. Bills typically run 400-600 per month.

There's my finances... and for having worked for 17 1/2 months, lived a comfortable but not exorbitant lifestyle, I feel that I have simply been undervalued. A big portion of this is that I took a job last year that was a good salary per hour, but was then denied the number of hours I had been promised. But then again, I'm sure I'm not the only one that has happened to (in other words, having a job's promises and the end salary not add up).

Yes, I realize I have just opened myself up to the flaming of certain posters here. I don't care, it was good for me to put the last 17 months in perspective.

At this rate, paying off my college degree would take 8 years and 8 months, assuming I never ate or spent any money. Given that I typically spend about 2,000rmb per month on food and all other expenses, that would then become more than 39 years to pay off college... never mind saving for retirement.

All I'm saying is that if we're expected to put out the cost for a Western degree, we should be reimbursed to a level that won't put us at a tremendous disadvantage in our lives (i.e. screwing ourselves on the opportunity cost of working in China versus the West). I already know your response, "If you don't like it, leave!" And I will as soon as my fiancee can with me (as I've said many times).

However, I feel that I am a passionate and skilled teacher... others like me will also leave and China will be left with a pool of 1) ideologically motivated teachers (which I don't think China wants), 2) teachers that are basically bad teachers (which I'm not sure if China cares about or not), or 3) teachers with severe personality disorders, possibly criminals (which I don't think China wants either).