Job Discussion Forums

[Cobra]

Grammer, ah yes, grammer!

Without grammer there is no language.

But if you are going to teach grammer you must first have motivated students who want to learn.

That will exclude 90% of Chinese English students who are in the warehouse system in order to keep them off the unemployment rolls and statistics.

Babysitters do not need to try to teach grammer because no one is there to learn anything.

I refer to the 2nd and 3rd tier unis and colleges of course.

[Cobra]

A nice gent, yes there are some here, sent me a PM, so as not to embarrass me, to let me know that I had mispelled "Grammir." Looking back I see that I did spell "Grammir" incorrectly as "grammer."

Damn us packpackers anyway!!!

[No Moss]

I know I'm going to be sorry for getting involved in this, but now I feel I have to reply to both Bertrand and Roger. Native speakers, for the most part, know grammar better than non-native speakers. Consider this sentence: "The man in the house next to mine keeps a garden in his back yard." Although it is a simple sentence, it involves a lot of grammar. Now here are the points I would like to make. Native speakers can replicate the equivalent of that sentence without much problem, given the need to. They can do it because they understand the patterns and principles involved, although they might not be able to muster the metlanguage to explain it. But how much time would it take you to explain that sentence in class? And how much time would you have wasted by explaining the grammar, time that would have been much better employed in the mundane, "I'm not the knower of all grammar", business of really teaching English.

Would I agree that being able to explain grammar makes you a slightly better teacher? Yes. Do I believe that actually teaching grammar in a classroom is, at best, a waste of time? Yes. But knock yourselves out, guys--none of us are anywhere near perfect in this game.

[Wolf]

All right.

AKA, I typed this at an internet cafe. This software has no spell check feature. Usually when I would submit a paper, I'd print out a copy, wait a couple of days, and then go through it line by line for errors. I don't do that when posting on this forum.

My first response was to just write a flame, but that wouldn't do. It would seem my post shows I know nothing about the topic in question. Maybe you found my post pretentious. I suppose it was. My only point was that, unlike many I know who teach here (not on this board - I don't know any of you), I have actually read academic papers and learned from them.

As my comments were not welcome, I will withdraw them.

On a different note, when I attended Japanese class for my first year, I basically learned the langauge grammar point by grammar point - with pracice speaking, listening to, and writing. Each unit of our course contained several points (as well as new vocabulary words and phrases.) I found this approach to be very useful. Indeed I don't see how one could become fluent in Japanese without a real understanding of how to use the grammar to express one's self.

Oh, and just to prove that I know what I'm talking about:

"Omae wa honin no mae ni waruguchi wo shi ta ke re ba, oomachiage da zo. Nande ore wa wakarazu yatsu da to? Ore wa shi te ru koto hitotsu ya futatsu ga aru janei."

Done gone edited for ignunce.

[AKA]

Jeez
Why can't any one spell GRAMMAR?
I mean, you look like a silly arse as a teacher if you can't even spell GRAMMAR.
I've got some other pet spelling peeves, but next time maybe.
Oh yeah, it's FOREIGNER, G before the N. No wonder Berts thinks we're Richard Craniums!
And Wolf, if I were your tutor you MIGHT get a conceded pass, if I were in a good mood. Look at your spelling man!

PS No posts about "THIS isn't an English class........." please. Talk about a subject and you should demonstrate a knowledge of what you're talking about.

[Cobra]

I said I was sorry and corrected my mistake. What more do you want?

I promise never to misspell "grammor" again.

PROMISE!

[Cobra]

ER, EXCUSE ME, I MEANT "GRAMMUR."

[Roger]

No Moss,
"native speakers, for the most part, know English grammar better than non-native spakers..."
Flight of fancy, man?

To my knowledge, they have to study it just as hard as non-native speakers. That's what formal English classes for native spakers are all about, isn't it?
Native speakers use grammar unconsciously, that's the sole difference to non-native spakers. To Engliosh speakers, the Chinese tones require as much mental preparedness for us as English grammar does for a non-English native. Why is learning the correct tones so difficult for a non-native Chinese spaker? It is because the studied language has been acquired by the mind, not the heart yet; the speaker uses the target language with great mental effort, consciously. This will stay that way until he has used it often enough to be able to communicate in it spontaneously, without thinking up every segment of a sentence or translating.
This labouring over how to express oneself in English makes me wary of oral English classes.

[dduck]

[Cobra]

Frankly speaking, breaking language teaching down into separate classes for grammar, listening comprhension, reading comprehension, phonetics, and conversation creates artificial barriers to language acquisition.

I prefer comprehensible input within a friendly (partial or full immersion) environment where grammar is naturally acquired.

So far all studies conclude that this is the more successful approach to language acquisition and comprehensible output.

But, to each backpacker, his own??

[Minhang Oz]

I'm with you, Cobra. Glad that GRAMMAR problem is sorted out.
Why do you sound so familiar???

[leeroy]

really?

I thought it was gramer.

[Cobra]

MAYBE WE HAVE BEEN READING THE SAME AUTHOR? KRASHEN!

[No Moss]

Teaching grammar has some value, but most students don't understand the terms (aka metalanguage) that you use to describe it. It bores them. It is usually taught in a way that ignores context and therefore doesn't engage them in the desire to communicate. If you can't get your students to engage and participate, they aren't going to learn much.

[AKA]

I wish to publicly withdraw comments made re: crappy spelling. Wolf is a good guy working hard to become a better teacher, and doesn't deserve sassy comments from a know all one trick pony. I just thought I'd get to him in a more gentle way than some would, but obviously missed the mark.