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tw
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
Posts: 3898
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 Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 2:01 am Post subject: |
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| endarkend wrote: |
| He claimed that it had to be cancelled before I left Xi'an, and it couldn't have been done after my arrival in Beijing. |
IMO, the only thing they wouldn't be able to do is issuing you the L visa.
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| And just out of curiosity if I had refused to hand over my passport, per the advice just given to me, would I then be able to transition over to a new employer more smoothly? It seems to me that there would be no way for me to get a letter of release if I simply refused to hand over my passport when he wanted to take it in and have the RPF cancelled... |
I think they would have try to make things difficult for you by holding your final pay and/or refusing to give you your release letter.
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| Regarding the letter of release -- I asked my boss about it and he put on his "even though I run this place I have no idea what you're talking about" show. He did finally agree to provide me with one, but I think I'll have to tell him exactly what needs to be included in it to avoid 'confusion' similar to what happened with my visa. So, anyone know what minimum content requirements of this letter are for it to be worth a damn? Would a simple "EnDarkEnd has fulfilled his contract and is hereby released from this school on good terms blah blah..." in both English and Chinese be good enough? Also, I've read that it needs to be stamped by the PSB, is that true? Should I also ask that he provide a letter of recommendation? |
It doesn't need to be stamped by the PSB in Xi'an. It MIGHT need to be stamped by the PSB in Beijing but I am not sure. You do need to get your current employer to stamp the release letter. I know for my current employer, I just needed to complete a form that looks like both a letter of release and a letter of recommendation, then get the college to put a couple stamps on it. It might have been stamped by the PSB in Changchun, but I wouldn't know. PM me with your e-mail address and I will e-mail the form to you. |
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Steppenwolf
Joined: 30 Jul 2006
Posts: 1769
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| Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 7:31 am Post subject: |
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To Steppenwolf this looks like a perfectly normal procedure: your tenure ended and thus you are no longer entitled to being a resident. You are now a tourist and as such you must have a tourist visa; that's what you got in your passport.
What else did you expect?
Asketh Steppenwolf
Oh, and the FEC booklet: you do not have the right to keep it in your possession! Many employers keep it in their custody! They are also held responsible for returning it once the foreign beneficiary has left the employer.
THis shows why we no longer have work visas in our passports but residents' permits: the old way with one passport and two different bookelts was too cumbersome and invited too often to abuse privileges. |
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cj750
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
Posts: 3081
Location: Beijing
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| Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 9:48 am Post subject: |
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Sorry Stepbrother....but now in Beijing and other places if you do not keep your FEC for the next employer ..you will be filling out additional paperwork to incl a medical exam..but by holding on to the lil' red book, you can avoid this additional hassle...
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your tenure ended and thus you are no longer entitled to being a resident. You are now a tourist and as such you must have a tourist visa; that's what you got in your passport.
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By making sure that your RP doesn't run out before you take on the next job, you insure that there is no visa problems...there is nothing against the law about having a RP date that runs past the employment date...when an employers cancels your FP for a tourist they are trying to keep you from applying to the competitors school...if your purpose to find another employment..it is treated as such when you first come in on a z visa before you start to work...if your employer doesn't have your passport it is harder for them to cancel FPs...so don't give up the passport towards the end of the school... |
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clandestine782
Joined: 23 Mar 2006
Posts: 154
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| Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 5:35 am Post subject: A strange event |
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The police here gave me something that I've never seen before. They wanted me to show them a bank account before they would issue me an L visa (which I wanted to take in order to avoid any uncomfortable questions that might come up about my last job).
I told them that the account that I had was drawn on an American bank and that the bank of China would not be able to provide any statements.
What they finally did was issue me a * visa (yes, I am saying that there was a star where the "L" or "Z" or "F" would have been) and it had it notated that my resident permit was cancelled and I had 30 days to stay in the country. I'm still thinking of a good lie to tell the next employer about it-- in the event that he actually looks at the visa because he doesn't believe me when I say it's an "L" visa. |
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cj750
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
Posts: 3081
Location: Beijing
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| Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 5:45 am Post subject: |
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| A *...interesting..tell us more when you learn what kind of visa this is and why the * |
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tw
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
Posts: 3898
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| Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 11:57 am Post subject: |
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| Sounds like what it obviously appears to be -- the OP's RPF had been cancelled, unlike others' that had expired and so they didn't need the "*". |
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englishgibson
Joined: 09 Mar 2005
Posts: 4345
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| Posted: Sun Aug 27, 2006 6:23 am Post subject: |
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| Cancelling foreign employees' RPFs, if the RPFs are for longer period of time than the RPFs holders' contracts is also the employer's duty or shall I say obligation. Having said that, the employer is obligated to provide that L visa to allow for travel. |
English, this is simply not true...employers do not issue visas....and there is no obligation to cancel a visa. Some employers are now only requesting dates of issue to mirror the contract so as to avail themselves of a exclusivity of worker..that is there is less chance for you to obtain work if you do not have time and there fore they do not have to worry that employees will work at the competition.
English if you want to provide information so as to seem that you are helpful..try researching it before giving out passing thoughts as fact. |
The "clue" giver has just spoken  ...cancelling a FT's contract the employer is obligated to provide or if you like it TO INSURE that that employee gets L to travel  ....if the employee-employer contract's terminated, the employee shall not wonder/work around China on RPF that's been provided or to your likes arranged by that former employer (that's given the circumstances the RPF isn't expired, but the contract is fulfilled)...if the contract isn't fulfilled due to disagreements in between the employee and employer and FAO is supposed to mediate...if that doesn't happen, the employee shall not "take a midnight run"....in cases of "RUNNING" employers are allowed to cancel RPFs  ....surely there are ways for FTs to "negotiate' with the local PSBs to get something like the OP on here has got
Now you Clueful, if you want to provide information so as to seem that you are helpful..try researching it yourself before giving out your feelings as facts
Your part-time work experience in China is appreciated however
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Get a release letter first.
Find a new job and make your visa their problem. They may be able to solve the problem easily or send you to Honk Kong for reentry. |
Release letters are easier to get once contracts are fulfilled. If not, employers may object to employees' resignations, and so release letters may not always be easy to come. The new RPFs are designed to provide employers with some sence of security with regards to employees contracts' fulfillment. In past, many FTs opted for "midnight runs" and so employers were in a disadvantage. RPFs usually or shall I say should come with standards FAO contracts that are "numbered". Once you've signed it you are supposed to be on record. You are supposed to fulfill the contract to its end unless you've negotiated your way out. So, reentries via Hong Kong may not help as much anymore depending on the FT's situation.
OP, questions about "tourists" financial situation for their visa purpose are quite reasonable, although in China they have not practised that much before (they have asked others in a few places). Chinese are frustrated by their own visa arrangements to foreign countries and their own need to clarify how "rich or poor" they are. It is quite reasonable to ask about your current financial situation, if you want to stay on as a "tourist" (even for just 30 days) in China, in my opinion.
I wish you good luck with your future employer as well as with your new RPF, OP.
Peace to all
and
cheers and beers 
_____________________________________________________________
I came to China with a couple hundred bucks in 2001 |
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cj750
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
Posts: 3081
Location: Beijing
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| Posted: Sun Aug 27, 2006 7:35 am Post subject: |
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cancelling a FT's contract the employer is obligated to provide or if you like it TO INSURE that that employee gets L to travel ....if the employee-employer contract's terminated, the employee shall not wonder/work around China on RPF that's been provided or to your likes arranged by that former employer (that's given the circumstances the RPF isn't expired, but the contract is fulfilled)...if the contract isn't fulfilled due to disagreements in between the employee and employer and FAO is supposed to mediate...if that doesn't happen, the employee shall not "take a midnight run"....in cases of "RUNNING" employers are allowed to cancel RPFs ....surely there are ways for FTs to "negotiate' with the local PSBs to get something like the OP on here has got
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totally unintelligible
If a employee is intending to come back to a former employer..why would he increase his own cost and put obstacles in the way of rehiring the same employee by having an L visa issue and why would it be any diffrent for the employee who is not gonna come back but still has time on his RP.....the same applies to a FT who has finish his contract ..why would he take an L by choice if he intended on working in china again only to have to leave the country to re apply...and FAO mediation is not final ..it would be my advice not to give up the passport as it will complicate maters for the next job..now if you want to make a trip to Hong Kong to fix a problem follow the advice of English.. in my last four years here in China I have never had my RP turned into an L visa...although I have had employers ask me for my passport..I have refused to give in and as a result have never had a problem when reapplying for my next RP...lets face it ..if it is that easy to cancel the RP then every employer would do that automatically upon your finishing a contract....with or with your your passport...
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| Your part-time work experience in China is appreciated however |
Not as much as you down on your knees dedication...English ole boy... |
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no_exit
Joined: 12 Oct 2004
Posts: 565
Location: Kunming
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| Posted: Sun Aug 27, 2006 9:31 am Post subject: |
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Why wouldn't the school want to cancel the RFP? They sponsored it, they paid for it, and the teacher doesn't have any right to it after his contract is finished. It is pretty standard for the employer to cancel the RFP after the teacher leaves -- otherwise the teacher could just go on his merry way, and in the OPs case, continue teaching for another six months while still on the first employers RFP. Is that fair to the employer?
Of course if the teacher is going to come back then the school is just going to extend his visa, but the discussion wasn't about teachers staying, it was about teachers who are leaving. Most schools will insist that you change your visa to an L visa if you leave. If you refuse to do this, then they may refuse to give you the release letter or letter of reference that you need to legally transfer your RFP from one sponsor to another (they require these things in order to make sure that you're clear to make the switch). If your school is super nice and agreeable, they might be cool with letting you keep the RFP (because usually, it is going to expire soon after the teacher leaves anyhow), but no school is going to let you keep an RFP that still has six months left on it unless they've blatantly cut a deal with you (I know of one center manager who "sold" visas to FTs by hooking them up with RFPs that went longer than their contracts at an additional price).
As for the experts book, I've been asked to return mine to the school after every contract I've signed. They only last a year anyhow, and I believe they *are* the property of the school, and not the teacher. I've never had a school that outright gave me the FEC and said here, take this, its yours to do with what you will. |
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cj750
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
Posts: 3081
Location: Beijing
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| Posted: Sun Aug 27, 2006 10:27 am Post subject: |
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ever even had an attempt by a school to cancel my RP...and I have also have kept my Red Book at every school I have worked in the last four year...and also kept a foreign workers book which is a kind of purple..and if you do not have the FEC book you will earn yourself an additional medical..I have not had to have a med exam in two years so far..by keepin my FEC book..true they will give you another one..but I have always had the FAO office of my employer ask for it...
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| otherwise the teacher could just go on his merry way, and in the OPs case, continue teaching for another six months while still on the first employers RFP. Is that fair to the employer? |
I have done just that on more than one occasion with no problem..maybe my employers though so much of me that they bent the rules but I some how believe that it was standard operating procedures..what I have said is there is no requirement for the cancelling of the RP...
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| Most schools will insist that you change your visa to an L visa if you leave. If you refuse to do this, then they may refuse to give you the release letter or letter of reference that you need to legally transfer your RFP from one sponsor to another (they require these things in order to make sure that you're clear to make the switch). |
Never had a school insist on this.. refuse to give me a release letter ...on these grounds..but giving up of the book and passport does not automatically earn you a release letter...it is the discretion of the school regardless of your actions as to whether you get a letter or not..and Department of Labor mediation's are just that and no more..it would take a court decision to force the school to provide you with something they have decided not to do...
my advice is not to give up anything... |
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no_exit
Joined: 12 Oct 2004
Posts: 565
Location: Kunming
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| Posted: Sun Aug 27, 2006 1:17 pm Post subject: |
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| It sounds like you've gotten lucky with employers cj, because keeping your RFP for six months after you've finished working for the school can't be normal. It doesn't make sense from the school's point of view to let you run around on their RFP doing whatever you please. Whether they help you change it to a new employer or not is their perogative, and if they know that you have a new job lined up they may not make a fuss about a few weeks left over on your original RFP, but six months is a long time. If I were the school I'd want it to be clear that the teacher wasn't going to work anywhere else on the original RFP. |
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cj750
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
Posts: 3081
Location: Beijing
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| Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 2:06 am Post subject: |
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| It sounds like you've gotten lucky with employers cj, because keeping your RFP for six months after you've finished working for the school can't be normal. |
Well lets review..but remember you make your own luck
came to China in 2000...had a legal job with Huaqiao....although they refused to issue a release letter even though I (we) had completed the contract and returned all items incl the FEC..and at that time a Green book ...that was the RP..if memory serves me..
I took a contract for 12 hours per week with Mary's School (because of the last school's refusal to give a release letter , I was issued a Foreign Worker's permit and it was about this time SARS was a problem, but it created a lot of high paying jobs in campuses where the students could not leave and most foreigners had gone home so you could work at several school and gain dual income...I had left Mary's School where I was working only 12 hours per week on the Foreign Workers book (not a FEC) and started teaching at Changchun University and some of their sisters schools.(on Mary's Foreign workers book, ....also started part time at Raffles who later offered a combo marketing teaching job..the issued a RP (Green book) and FEC from Raffles...but the cold was to persuasive and I wanted to go to Vietnam on a motorcycle trip so I resigned from Raffles (for many reasons) and using their RP (Green book) went to Vietnam until a school in Auckland called me to ask if I could work in Dalian..returned to China on Raffles RP (green book) and went to Dalian..where the school was supposed to issue a FEC and a RP (green book)..took some time because the government of Dalian had run out of book..or so the school said..I pushed through Auckland University and they push Dalian Education and low and behold a new FEC and RP...but I was close to 9 months and had finished the contract early so Auckland paid out my contract and I was free to go..with a Dalian RP and A FEC from Dalian Education...went back to Changchun and planned a move to the motorcycle mecca of Beijing...I took a job with TIC out of Singapore..working through Geely..and issued a RP (sticker) and FEC ... TIC and Geely decided to call it quits and TIC moved operations to another city..I stayed in Beijing and working on the FEC from Geely started with SIWA overseas education service and Leeds out of England..still on the RP/FEC form Geely...finish the contract and went back to Geely and got a release letter 9 months after I had left..then on to BIBS where I finish in June of this year..stayed in Beijing on the RP and took my FEC which has been turned into my new employer...
In my experience ..it is normal to keep the FEC and RP..as I have never in 4 years had it revoked and would never surrender my passport....further more..it is my experience that working on another FEC is normal also at least until you can secure a new one from the present employer..
I am not saying this is the right way..just the way it happened..and the advice not to give up these books... |
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englishgibson
Joined: 09 Mar 2005
Posts: 4345
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| Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 6:17 am Post subject: Is this normal? (PSB cancelled my RPF and gave me an L visa) |
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Your experience is deffinitely appreciated, CJ. However, times change. Our passports' RFPs are residency stickers for purpose of work in China. We no longer need those old booklets for residency. RFP stickers our a new concept in China. This has been discussed on another thread before, I believe.
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..it is my experience that working on another FEC is normal also at least until you can secure a new one from the present employer..
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Now, that's wrong 
An RFP is a priviledge to work for an employer in China. FEC is a document that comes alongside the RFP....thanx to that employer
If we do not intend to fulfill our obligations with the employers, we shall discuss our issues reasonably with them as well as with the local Foreign Affairs. Let's end our "obligations" in China graciously
Peace to all
and
cheers and beers to us
_____________________________________________________________
Follow the jungle's rules, not your ego
And, don't flame, if the fire isn't needed |
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cj750
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
Posts: 3081
Location: Beijing
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| Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 6:49 am Post subject: |
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We no longer need those old booklets for residency. RFP stickers our a new concept in China. This has been discussed on another thread before, I believe.
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It was also noted in my post..."I took a job with TIC out of Singapore..working through Geely..and issued a RP (sticker) and FEC "
I formally used the green book and after coming to Beijing stated to receive the RP sticker..
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Quote:
..it is my experience that working on another FEC is normal also at least until you can secure a new one from the present employer..
Now, that's wrong |
English how can my experience be wrong...it is just as it is...nothing more or nothing less than my experience...
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If we do not intend to fulfill our obligations with the employers, we shall discuss our issues reasonably with them as well as with the local Foreign Affairs. Let's end our "obligations" in China graciously
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Who are you to decide what our obligations are...that is an agreement between employer and employee...and apparently they have returned my FECs and have allow me to go on to the next employment with a current RP...so I would guess that all obligations have been fulfilled..
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| If we do not intend to fulfill our obligations with the employers, we shall discuss our issues reasonably with them as well as with the local Foreign Affairs |
no need to discuss anything as long as you have provided for all understandings before employment..and who is "we"..you and your MSG laden mouse...all my contracts were satisfied and all requirements had been achieved...paid in full and off to the next job...
Again, I am tellin you what I found to be normal operating procedures and my advice is that if you give up these documents your next employment will be more difficult to achieve and additional steps towards employment will be required..
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| Let's end our "obligations" in China graciously |
Let's as in us....no I think these are your obligations and have nothing to do with me or my experience... |
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englishgibson
Joined: 09 Mar 2005
Posts: 4345
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| Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 8:27 am Post subject: Is this normal? (PSB cancelled my RPF and gave me an L visa) |
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Sometimes, I really feel sorry for these forums and at this point I am also feeling sorry for you, CJ  ....but can you feel the wind  keep diggin' through yar tunnel 
OP, it is normal as for your topic, but as for this thread now as it stands.....it's become rather "subnormal" after a few pages on  I hope you'll have luck in finding that job and getting a proper sticker in your passport to work. Keep us posted on here
Peace to all
and
cheers and beers to us |
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