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lou_la
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
Posts: 140
Location: Bristol
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 Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 10:31 am Post subject: |
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| TaoyuanSteve wrote: |
| An acquaintance of mine is a head foreign teacher for a Hess branch in Taoyuan city. She looked into the kindy issue. She was assured from very high in the organization that there was zero risk for foreign teachers working int heir kindy division. |
This is what the recruiter said as well - apparently there's some loophole where you're only the kids 'english subject' teacher (even if you're teaching immersion, full day classes!), and there's a chinese teacher that's their 'proper' teacher.
It's still weird thinking that laws can be so blatantly flouted though! Thanks everyone for your help. |
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I_is_teach_English
Joined: 01 Aug 2006
Posts: 44
Location: Taiwan
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| Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 12:32 pm Post subject: |
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This is me with a Hess kindergarten kid and two policemen at the main police station in Fongyuan for a field trip ... Aren't the policemen smiling nicely? I couldn't resist the temptation, as I knew it was illegal!
It is also the law to stop at red lights ... Ha ha ha! You'll find that most laws here are pretty flexible and depend on contacts and money (bribes?!). My Hess kindergarten would normally be given notice of any 'visit' by the authorities and we had an escape plan if there was ever a surprise visit. I worked in a Hess kindergarten for three years and was never raided, but that's not to say it didn't happen. A friend of mine called me one afternoon to borrow a bit of money for coffee, because he had left his wallet behind in the rush to get out of his branch! How do Hess get round it ... Legally you're on the books for tax purposes, ARC etc at one of the HLS branches (buxiban).
Personally, I would go for the full-time kindy position as you won't have any homework to mark (this can take up to 1 and 1/2 hours a day UNPAID if you teach two classes at HLS a day) and you get your evenings free. The only downside is that it is in Taoyuan, which is not the nicest place to live ... Really don't worry about the illegal thing and if it hadn't been for my loving kindy kids I would never have made it through my HLS classes in the evening. Personally, I found the kindy kids the most fun to teach, and as you see them every day, you actually see their development and know that it is somewhat down to you ... that is a great reward! |
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SanChong
Joined: 22 Nov 2005
Posts: 335
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| Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 1:09 pm Post subject: |
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That was a great summary by "Taoyuan Steve" and "I_Teach..."
Kindy is illegal, but you are in a different country where laws are treated differently. There really is little history to show there is any risk involved in teaching kindy. For example, try to find examples of a teacher being deported for teaching kindy. I'd be very interested in seeing them.... The thing is, there AREN'T any (there may be one or two, but there were likely other factors involved.
If people had been deported for Kindy teaching, there would be threads all over the place. Anytime something goes wrong people post on these forums! I'm pretty sure deportation for kindy teaching would send people running for their computers!!
Last year, there were a rash of deportations, but they were for a totally DIFFERENT reason. A number of people were deported for working at a 2nd school not listed on their ARC/work permit. Still, people continue to work in jobs which force them to work illegally at a 2nd or 3rd school. That is much more dangerous than working Kindy, in my opinion. I had a good friend deported for just that reason. That's why it's so important to work with a recruiter or school that will always provide you with full time, LEGAL work (Kindy being the exception).
Toe Save said:
| Quote: |
| Work buxiban, or adults. Leave the puke and piddle mopping to others. |
A lot of people are very passionate about teaching their kindy classes and very much enjoy it. I don't think it's very fair to describe it that way. Teaching kindy was always my favorite part of the day, because you get the kids for a longer period of time and can make a greater impact on them. |
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lou_la
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
Posts: 140
Location: Bristol
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| Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 2:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Thanks again everyone, you've made my decision a lot easier. |
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markholmes
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 661
Location: Wengehua
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| Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 5:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Personally, I found the kindy kids the most fun to teach, and as you see them every day, you actually see their development and know that it is somewhat down to you ... that is a great reward! |
Spot on. I totally agree. But choose immersion if you have the choice.
I hated teaching older kids in the evening.
Kindy has good hours (generally 9-4), no weekends, you get a free lunch and get to go to the park alot. But mostly you get to know the kids really well and they become your kids.
The downside (which I think is more than balanced out by the upside) is that there is a very slight possibility that you might get into trouble and an even slighter possibility of being deported. |
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Toe Save
Joined: 04 Oct 2004
Posts: 202
Location: 'tween the pipes.........
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| Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 6:32 pm Post subject: |
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| SanChong wrote: |
Toe Save said:
| Quote: |
| Work buxiban, or adults. Leave the puke and piddle mopping to others. |
A lot of people are very passionate about teaching their kindy classes and very much enjoy it. I don't think it's very fair to describe it that way. Teaching kindy was always my favorite part of the day, because you get the kids for a longer period of time and can make a greater impact on them. |
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| markholmes wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Personally, I found the kindy kids the most fun to teach, and as you see them every day, you actually see their development and know that it is somewhat down to you ... that is a great reward! |
Spot on. I totally agree. But choose immersion if you have the choice.
I hated teaching older kids in the evening.
Kindy has good hours (generally 9-4), no weekends, you get a free lunch and get to go to the park alot. But mostly you get to know the kids really well and they become your kids.
The downside (which I think is more than balanced out by the upside) is that there is a very slight possibility that you might get into trouble and an even slighter possibility of being deported. |
Apologies then. I withdraw my blathering hyperbole in favour of wiser words. In fact, I doff my cap to those of you that can muster enthusiasm for the job. Indeed a special breed.
Sadly, I am not of this, your ilk.
I was actually going to highlite what I said about the risk outweighing the benefit but MarkHolmes puts it very succinctly in that the risk is minimal at most. At the risk of being run completely off topic, I pose this question: Would it be fair to say that the risk increases with the lesser known also-rans than would be with a chain? |
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markholmes
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 661
Location: Wengehua
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| Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 7:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| At the risk of being run completely off topic, I pose this question: Would it be fair to say that the risk increases with the lesser known also-rans than would be with a chain? |
I think that very much depends on the set up of the school plus the guanxi factor. If the kindy is within the same building as the buxiban this has to give you a little more security because 1) the address on your ARC is for the correct location, 2) if you are caught in a raid you have a legitimate reason to be in the building.
If you mean back alley kindies working out of the ground floor of somebody's house (or similar), where you can be seen through the front window, jumping around with the kids everyday from 10-noon, then clearly you would be at more risk.
Even when breaking the law you need to be sensible about the risks you take. |
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SanChong
Joined: 22 Nov 2005
Posts: 335
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| Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 10:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| I pose this question: Would it be fair to say that the risk increases with the lesser known also-rans than would be with a chain? |
It's possible that is true, but this is hard to predict. I think with any legal type situation in Taiwan, the best thing to do is look at what has ACTUALLY happened in the past. To look at what the precedent has been.
The history of Kindergarten teachers being deported is next to none. In fact, it really might be NONE. There was one Kojen teacher deported a couple years ago. She was a Kindy teacher, so people assumed it was for Kindy work. However, if you read the case carefully, you will see she was actually deported for working at a second school, WITHOUT A WORK PERMIT.
And if we look at the legal history of teachers in Taiwan, that is clearly where the risk lies: Working at a job without a work permit. That's risky and people have been deported. Is it likely? Absolutely not, and we are only talking a handful to 10 people deported out of thousands of teachers and over a long period of time. But, working at the school where you have a work permit is a choice every teacher can make. It's easy to choose to work only at a school that will give you a work permit.
This is why I always encourage people (especially first timers) to make sure they come to Taiwan through a reputable Company, with a good track record. Salaries are pretty much the same. Being LEGAL and ensuring you are in a good environment is harder to do. Using places like Buxiban.com and Reach To Teach are ways to make sure you are working in honest jobs.
So, the bottom line: Is Kindy teaching worth it? Yes, I would say the risk is minimal to none. If you asked 100 teachers in Taiwan if they think working at a Kindergarten is risky, I'm fairly confident almost all of them would give you a resounding, "NO, it's no problem". That said, everyone has their own level of acceptable risk, and should do their own research and make up their own minds.
By the way, I'd just like to say that I think we are finally winning the battle to make this forum a more positive place.... It has a totally different tone than it had a year ago (aside from the random Aristotle sightings). This thread is a great example: One year ago, this would have degenerated into an irrational shouting match about how bad one persons school was and focusing on a couple negative situations. Now, we are having a real, objective discussion and helping people understand the risks..... I can finally say it's fun to be a part of this board!! |
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blateson
Joined: 12 Mar 2006
Posts: 144
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| Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 6:16 am Post subject: |
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| how might you actually COMPARE teaching kindergarten kids (2 (?) years old through 5 & 6) versus all the experience I have had in other countries of teaching 8 through 14 (and of course up through adults). What would be the nature of teaching such tiny kids versus how you conduct a classroom of 11 year olds? i.e. attention spans much shorter and I would think lesson topics much shorter as well; alot more body language and big smiles, etc? |
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steve_c
Joined: 25 Nov 2006
Posts: 96
Location: Luzhu (or Lujhu or Luchu or...sigh)
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| Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 5:00 pm Post subject: Re: Teaching Kindy |
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| lou_la wrote: |
But on the legality aspect - how can Hess openly employ foreigners to teach kindy? I thought this was illegal? |
This is my first post here, and this is exactly the question I wanted to ask. Thanks to all for posting their responses.
Note: Being a newbie, I didn't want to get flamed by asking a repeated question, so I took the (sometimes sarcastic) advice and used the search function....voil�, success! |
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