Job Discussion Forums

[dmb]

[cmp45]

Yes I guess I miss-interpreted the topic...western administrators... are a different kettle of fish all togeather..."you can please some of the poeple some of the time, but ya can't please all of the people all of the time."

[Cleopatra]

I had the same impression as VS about the question posed by the OP: that she was talking about foreigners who are hired in managerial positions by education institutions here, despite having no experience of Gulf society. These people come here with a hippy-ish Benetton ad view of the world, where we all love each other because of - not despite - our diversity. Of course that 'diversity' is limited to different skin tones and choice of sweater, and never impacts on anything as fundamental as life style or ways of thinking. It's been my experience that, when faced with genuine cultural conflicts or misunderstandings, these hippy types simply respond by putting their Granola heads in the sand and pretending that it doesn't exist.

That's because we're really all 'the same' in spite of our 'diversity', aren't we?

Um... no, we're not, not really.

[Queen of Sheba]

How did this get into another complaining session about KSA - ah yes the prod got involved.

Yes exactly VS and Cleo, this is what I am talking about, thanks for clarifying. The granolas as Western love bugs, who just want to please everyone, and never get anything done in the process. You can talk to them all day long; try to explain things, until you curb yourself because they may eventually think you are after their job or something. Many times, it�s not their fault, they are well intentioned, but the fault of the employer for assuming their love all and please all perspective will not overtly offend anyone in KSA. People are often so concerned with offending anyone in KSA that they just hire these passive do-gooders who don�t do squat in the end! I am talking about administrative things not creating cultural changes. That is not the point of any staff member.

Another sort of these nut muffins are those who have explosives hidden in their occasional venomous spurts about the local culture and admit to hating it, being here only for the money, etc. As a teacher, or educator, this is something that really hurts our profession, I believe. Even if you believe it, don�t say it out loud, its not respectable or appreciated by most colleagues, I would hope, and certainly not administration or students.

[Abba]

[Queen of Sheba]

That maybe so Abba, but to my standards of acceptable and respectable behavior, admitting you hate the culture and have no interest in it, is very crass and very colonial. The Westerners have come to save the silly local from themselves attitude. It seems very outdated and rude to me, no matter from where you hail to think you are better than the locals is one thing, to say it out loud quite another. And yes, I agree I think the locals and students in this case know why those teachers are there, and they may not even care anymore, since they have become so accustomed to these people hating them and taking advantage of them and then leaving�.so then how can we expect locals to ever respect us and allow us to be �free� when "we" very innwardly and outwardly hate them and are here only for the tax-free ride?

Have we (the collective Western workers) created our own bed in KSA due to this colonial hatred and money hungry attitude, and now have to lie in it?

[Abba]

[The_Prodiigy]

"May be, they are few foreigners (minority) who are here for something else."


Some stay for fun & frolics and rich teaching experiences.
Others choose not to.

[Stephen Jones]

[Abba]

[Cleopatra]

I think both sides (if one can put it that way) are to blame for the mutual mistrust and even contempt which all too frequently prevails between locals and expats. Let's face it, for most people - including Muslim Arabs - KSA is not the easiest society to like or into which to attempt to gain a foothold.

That said, I don't think the level of responsibility is equal on both sides. After all, if you are choosing to come to live in a country, the onus is on you, the foreigner, to make the effort to adjust. That does not meen you have to like all - or any - of what you see in Saudi society. However, it does at the very least require that you at least make the psychological effort to see things from another point of view, and it does mean that you should certainly not openly disparage your host country in front of the locals. Of course, the locals themselves often criticise many aspects of their country and society when in the presence of foreigners they trust, but that, as they say, is different. Just because someone criticises their own country does not neccessarily mean they appreciate expats - particularly uninformed expats - doing the same thing from a vantage point of Western supremacy.

[Queen of Sheba]

Well said Cleo, both sides are to blame. The Saudi for accepting it, Western for perpetuating it. Actually since ESL grew out of missionary and colonialism - maybe it�s not so odd or limited to KSA - is this pervasive in other countries it I wonder?

[Cleopatra]

[cmp45]

I think Hofstede's (1991)quote sums it up,

"Culture is more often a source of conflict than of synergy. Cultural differences are a nuisance at best and often a distaster."

Hofstede formulated five dimesnsions about culture. Individualism, Masculinity, Uncertainty Avoidance, Power Difference, and Long Term Orientation.

His dimensions of culture provide a better understanding of intercultural differences within regions and between countries. Well, in theory anyways... However, it does help understand the complex nature of culture and the differences especially between Saudis and westerners.

I agree with Cleopatra as well, If a person goes to the trouble of applying for a job and getting a visa to work in Saudi Arabia, you would think after all the hassles of getting into the Kingdom you would at least try to understand / accept some of the cuture.

I admit we all have our bad days, and one does not neccesarily have to embrace all aspects of the culture, but for western expatriates to openly complain about the laws, religion etc is rather arrogant and basically says more about one's character than anything about the Saudi culture.

Think about it. What is the point? Choosing to live in Saudi Arabia and then complaining about it, is just plain lunacy? If you can not accept the Saudi culture, perhaps Saudi Arabia is not the place to be.

Yes, I think money is the main culprit, as people come here to make money and do not think much of anything else in the process.

Focusing only on money is where one falls into the cycle of complaining. I am certainly not advocating that all is perfect in the Kingdom, but remember we chose to come thousands of kilometers to work here. So we should at least try to be civilized about our complaining.

My father always said, " If you can't think of anything nice to say, don't say anything at all."

Traffic congestion, and spitting on the side walk is exempt; and one is certainly free to complain. LOL

[Cleopatra]

Good post.