Job Discussion Forums

[OzBurn]

>First of all, the NHS. (The British health service) You do not have to pay to
use the health system in Britian. Yes, taxes go directly to the upkeep of the NHS but there are lots of people who don't pay tax who can and do use the NHS (the unemployed, minors, OAPs) and don't contribute a penny for services rendered, is that the same for the states? I don't think so!

Hint #2: The system has to be paid for by taxes. It may be "free" to some, but it's not free for the working people who finance it.

>Bully for you about your choice of doctors etc. But a lot of people in your country don't have that choice or those options, so because it suits you. Then there is no need to change the system?

After working out the poor English in the paragraph above, I believe that the answer your question is that there is a need to change the system, but not by converting it to socialism. Incidentally, such research as has been performed on the NHS indicates that the divide in quality of health care between rich and poor widened rather than narrowed after the NHS was instituted.

>Finally, what Euro riots? You are going to get it around your thick American crainium that because there might be a riot in Paris or in Bradford that it doesn't affect the whole of Europe.

Hint #3: Riots and racist exclusion occurs in many parts of Europe. Do you want to know which parts? That's right, the parts where there are racial minorities!

[Luder]

Okay, given our own recent history of race riots (Cincinnati, LA), I don't think it's all that wise for Ozburn to be so smug about our integration of ethnic minorities in the US, but for the most part he's clearly right; and some posters on the Italy, Spain, and France boards clearly take sadistic pleasure in telling Americans they can't work in Europe.

And pray tell, dear Bejarano and Sue, what in the world building a wall on the US border has to do with any of the points Ozburn is trying to make? Try as I might, I fail to see the slightest connection. And you, Bejarano, you even bring up that old canard about them Mexicans doing the work us white trash don't want to. Again, at the service of some point that utterly eludes my underdeveloped white-trash brain. Can't you think of something more original?

And spiral, as long as you stick to arguments about the practical difficulties of working illegally, you're reasonable enough. But once you clamber up on your high horse--as you and your ilk invariably do--and start preaching about the immorality of it, you're just absurd.

[spiral78]

Luder, who's my 'ilk?' You realize that I'm American - my spouse is Czech, which does NOT allow me unlimited access to EU member countries. I have work within the EU thanks to a multinational corporation's agreement with Den Hague for spouses of their staff.

True, my personal take is that I don't think that it's morally right to work illegally - though as I said, I can see it as less wrong if you are coming from a country that is very dangerous or poor. But that isn't even the important point here.

I know 100%, as we all do, that many North Americans (and others) are going to take the chance of working illegally in the EU. Approached realistically, with an awareness of the drawbacks, it can work for a while.

But as a professional (in my own case, that means MA TESL/TEFL, eight years of experience, six years in universities) working illegally isn't an option, no matter how much one would LIKE to live in Spain or Italy.

Sorry, it's not an 'absurd' point to make.

As I said, if you just really WANT TO, it can work out short-term. But there's no future in working where you can't get legal papers.

So, have a blast while you're there, be careful, good luck.

[SueH]

Luder,

Just slightly amused by the fact that we have somebody complaining about verbal or legal barriers to working somewhere coming from a country which is contemplating a massive physical barrier.

Anyway, I am sure we are all happy the poster against socialized medicine is so well off and with a decent tenured job. Sounds like he too is also very satisfied with his own situation, and we are very grateful for his sharing of that information.

[bejarano]

[bejarano]

[spiral78]

Bejarano, you've got very functional English. Good point about arguing in an L2. It's a situation I face frequently, and I can't do it nearly as well as you!!

In my opinion, the Mexican fruit picker's got a better case for working illegally, because his family's starving in Mexico...............

However, it's still beside the point. Those people who WANT to work in the EU illegally are GOING TO. All I can offer really is (as Luder points out) a practical, realistic heads up about the risks.

But almost none of them is going to be there more than a year or two at most. Once again, last time for a long time I promise, it doesn't work long term, and it doesn't work for professionals.

[nicho81]

There is no conspiracy, the advice here is generally good. If you want to work illegaly fine, you will be able to find work and probably won't be caught. If you want to stay longer you will have problems. You will need a permesso di sogiorno (sp?) and a residency permit just to open a bank account. You will not have a legal contract and have to ask why are people giving you a job. You will not have a proper contract for rent and your landlord will ignore all problems. And God forbid you ever want to get help from any officials. Many of these things are difficult enough in Italy without being illegal, but they won't be a problem if you are over for a gap year.

[go with the flow]

[snuffy519]

OzBurn is right. Largely. My only critique would be the hypocrisy of working illegally in Europe (or anywhere for that matter) and the indignation of the almost-stifling amount of illegal immigration from Mexico to the U.S. Indeed, "where there's a will, there's a way," is certainly true if one is an American (or non-EU passport holder) and wants to work in the EU. It seems to be the case with Mexicans working illegally here in the U.S.

The larger point, however, is the idiocy of non-Americans resorting to the America-bashing that is almost a cliche in ESL circles. On message boards and in person, they're all the same. And they're all wrong. Reasonable people can disagree, but when SueH and Bejarano cling to the Workers of the World Unite! mantra, it's so laughably outdated that it doesn't take an imagination to wonder why Europe lags so far behind the U.S. in technological innovation for one, moral courage for another.

SueH, are you American? Have you lived in America for an extended time? Bejarano? Unless and until you do, it's my humble suggestion that you reserve your moral outrage over the U.S./Mexican wall for perhaps all the Mexicans who are waiting in line, properly, for their papers and who get passed over by the hundreds of thousands pouring in illegally every year. Gee, now there's a thought. If conditions are such that they are so badly exploited, as SueH claims, why are there so many of them working in the U.S.? Why does America get blamed when it's the corruption and economic ineptitude of Mexico that should be? Mexico borders the richest, most resourceful, and most advanced country in the history of the world, and yet they continue to develop at a 3rd world pace. That's America's fault?

Interestingly, more and more people desire to come to America.

The problem with people who don't understand the complexity of the issue is that there is a real opposition to any amnesty for illegals currently living and working in America. As there should be. The last time I checked, illegals were breaking the law and were criminal. Same with ESL teachers who aren't legal.

So, please, spare America your antipathy and save it for the real injustices of the world. Most Americans, minus the ESL ilk, believe the country stands for principles that Europe no longer embraces. Having said that, Europe is not a bad place at all. It's just different.

As for the health coverage debate, TRUST me, there is no better place to be for quality healthcare than America. None. Zero. It is an imperfect system, yes, but it's far closer to what people need than the didactic framework of socialized medicine. People should not be forced to pay for others who make no contributions to the system. COBRA here works to cover most people who are between jobs, as it helps to force people to find a new job, rather than add to the unemployment rate (care to compare those?). The elderly here get Medicare, which is a huge government entitlement, bought and paid for with taxes. Insurance is NOT as costly as you've been led to believe. It just isn't. It is if you have a pre-existing condition. As for the medical science itself...most of the revolutionary medicine comes from America. It's a fortunate consequence of a free-market system that encourages achievement.

I don't want to talk policy on an ESL message board, but I'm also quite tired of the trite anti-Americanism that pervades this group. Especially when it's bred from ignorance, misunderstanding, and a small *beep* complex.

[SueH]

I think you lost me when you wrote about 'moral courage'. Still, I'm sure you're feeling better after that outpouring.

[serrabella]

If you're looking for short-term experience abroad...I can see working illegally as a solution. How did you go about finding the school and applying for the position? I'm interested in Italy myself but hesitant because of the passport issue.

[Betti]

Yawn..there are so many posts on this board regarding non-EU members asking the same old questions about finding work in Italy, excuse our cynicism. Bottom line - if you want it bad enough I guess you come here and take a risk. No Brit I know would try and discourage these people just out of spite but, by the same token, I can't get a job in the US, I wouldn't be prepared to work there illegally, ergo I don't go! There are PLENTY of unscrupulous schools in the ELT world so, presumably, there are plenty of posts for teachers without EU passports. There's more than enough work for all of us but don't whinge to us just because we were born in Europe! I'd be interested to know how many of these 'illegal' incomers want to come to la bella italia because of a desire to teach...or is it the lure of the CAPPUCCINO CULTURE

[snuffy519]

You're right Sue. I do. The truth feels good. The ESL crowd honestly makes me feel better about being American. Seriously. I'm not saying that to incite a response. And I happen to agree with Spiral's assessment of professionalism in choosing to become legal in the respective country in which you decide to work.

I firmly believe Europe is a neat place to visit. Having lived there, I'm more convinced that Europe doesn't stand for anything. That's okay (for Europe). Americans and Europeans are socialized quite differently in their worldviews. I think much of that is because, put simply, we beat fascism and communism and it was our military that protected the European continent. Europe rode for free after WWII. You may disagree with policy (I suspect much of the antipathy is Iraq related), but America does what it does for noble reasons. Not perfectly, but we try. That's a fact.

The next time any European decides to stand on principle, you let me know.

Between the Balkans and the immigration issues Europe is experiencing, I'd bet there might be some shift in people's perspective of what moral courage is. However, if not, one might look elsewhere for help the next time Europe needs aid. Again.

[Betti]

Since when did the average American have a "world view"?! Purlease, the tone of Snuffy's post just further enforces the stereotypes Europeans hold about Americans. You don't like Europe? Fine, don't come. Love America? Great, stay there. Don't hijack this forum for pompous patriotic rantings, it's a forum about TEACHING in ITALY.