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Toe Save
Joined: 04 Oct 2004
Posts: 202
Location: 'tween the pipes.........
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 Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 3:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Dr_Zoidberg wrote: |
| furiousmilksheikali wrote: |
| you quite clearly didn't read or understand such simple English. |
The OP said she welcomed ALL comments, I gave her one. If she is only interested in partying, do those who are making a life here a favour and stay home. Conversely, if she's genuinely interested in living in a foreign culture, genuinely interested in Taiwan, then ask pertinent questions. Why do you have a problem with that?
| furiousmilksheikali wrote: |
| you clearly felt personally slighted when you responded this way. |
Not in the least, but don't expect me to encourage, let alone help, someone who asks where party city is while neglecting to ask more pertinent questions about living and working in Taiwan.
By the way, I have yet to hear anyone on this thread refute what I have said. I'll be charitable and say you were so busy slinging mud it must have slipped your mind, and not assume it's because you are incapable of intelligent discourse. |
You are being infuriatingly obtuse man. We have done nothing but refute your post. It's the same thing with your argument over signatures at f.com
It's been explained to you, but you stoically stick to your guns. Well blaze on young fella. I'm done with you.
And next guy, pman or whatever you call yourself now. I'd say that your example is merely testimony to your inability to size up candidates. And that it has happened so frequently really makes me wonder. Wasn't it Einstein who said something about insanity being defined by the continuous repetition of the same mistake?
You stick by Zoidy. You two seem a good pair. Emabarrassed to be Canadian? LMAO!!! Keep your stick on the ice and your head up there, sport. Skate, Pass, Shoot. That's all you gotta know. And if you aren't skating, you're a pylon. Don't be a pylon.
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Dr_Zoidberg
Joined: 29 Sep 2004
Posts: 406
Location: Not posting on Forumosa.
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| Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 4:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Toe Save wrote: |
| We have done nothing but refute your post |
Go back and read your posts. You have done nothing but engage in personal attacks. Is there a point in repeatedly bringing up my posts over at f.com? If you want to talk about people's posts at f.com, fine. Let's talk about yours. Why don't you post there anymore? Oh yeah, I remember. You were banned. |
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SanChong
Joined: 22 Nov 2005
Posts: 335
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| Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 2:09 am Post subject: |
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I see both sides of this discussion, I really do.
1) The Original Poster is probably a very nice person just looking for some helpful information.
2) She did come off as not having her "priorities" straight. Asking about money, partying and beaches without even MENTIONING teaching, or the local culture, is not the right approach. If there are people who have problems in Taiwan, they are generally people with that kind of attitude. If new teachers realized they were coming to a new country, that this is a real job and that they have real responsibilities... then a lot of problems would fade away very quickly.
Unfortunately, some people who ask the same questions as the OP can turn out to be that "Ugly Foreigner" who expects everything to be like home and embarrasses the rest of us.
So, I see both sides. Dr. Z's feelings were fair, but they probably could have been expressed in a bit of a different way.
On the other hand, Toe Save, since your expulsion from Forumosa, you have certainly added a different personality to this forum.
You do come on extremely strong. It would be nice if you stopped calling teaching "Baby Sitting" and generally putting down the teaching profession in a continuously derogatory way. I think constantly putting down teachers helps no one, especially considering that's the reason this forum exists!! |
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BigWally
Joined: 07 Jun 2006
Posts: 765
Location: Ottawa, CAN (prev. Kaohsiung "the Dirty South")
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| Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 2:23 am Post subject: |
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| SanChong wrote: |
I see both sides of this discussion, I really do.
1) The Original Poster is probably a very nice person just looking for some helpful information.
2) She did come off as not having her "priorities" straight. Asking about money, partying and beaches without even MENTIONING teaching, or the local culture, is not the right approach. If there are people who have problems in Taiwan, they are generally people with that kind of attitude. If new teachers realized they were coming to a new country, that this is a real job and that they have real responsibilities... then a lot of problems would fade away very quickly.
Unfortunately, some people who ask the same questions as the OP can turn out to be that "Ugly Foreigner" who expects everything to be like home and embarrasses the rest of us.
So, I see both sides. Dr. Z's feelings were fair, but they probably could have been expressed in a bit of a different way.
On the other hand, Toe Save, since your expulsion from Forumosa, you have certainly added a different personality to this forum.
You do come on extremely strong. It would be nice if you stopped calling teaching "Baby Sitting" and generally putting down the teaching profession in a continuously derogatory way. I think constantly putting down teachers helps no one, especially considering that's the reason this forum exists!! |
Here here! Although I do have to say I like the style of Toe's humor at times. But as a "teacher" here in Taiwan it is a bit degrading to be called a baby sitter, even if at some jobs thats all one really is. |
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Toe Save
Joined: 04 Oct 2004
Posts: 202
Location: 'tween the pipes.........
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| Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 2:27 am Post subject: |
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| Dr_Zoidberg wrote: |
| Toe Save wrote: |
| We have done nothing but refute your post |
Go back and read your posts. You have done nothing but engage in personal attacks. Is there a point in repeatedly bringing up my posts over at f.com? If you want to talk about people's posts at f.com, fine. Let's talk about yours. Why don't you post there anymore? Oh yeah, I remember. You were banned. |
Oh brother! You poor misguided soul. Like I said, "Done with you."
But not before answering your question about motivation. I brought up those posts to show a behavioural pattern of obtuseness. Of refusing to smell the coffee when it's brewing right under your nose.
You be you. Keep it up. But you've completely lost my respect now.
OP< sorry about all the bickering in your thread, I am sure some mod will come along and hack out the more offensive bits. Please don't worry about what these castigators are drivelling over the thread. If you can ask some more pertinent questions, maybe we can help you out further with your choice. Let me just say that I have few regrets in life, but a chief one was that I didn't start travelling until my late 30s. I am the happiest I've ever been now. And I lived the life of a ski-bum in North America's biggest and best resort town for almost 10 years. But in the last 3 years, I've been to Thailand a few times, Bali, Hong Kong and most recently Boracay, Phillipines. In fact, I am pretty sure I'll be taking a few months off from my current job next September and taking my Dive Master and Scuba Instructor courses. These are pricey both financially and time-wise, but by working hardfor the next 6 months and watching my budget just a little more avidly, I will be able to accomplish this life-long dream.
Life is what you make it. A lot of people in Taiwan didn't (make it). That's why they are here. Any schmo with a degree can get a job. Most folks I've met, from Canada, America, England and South Africa, have been complete morons. They were losers in their own country and escape to the relatively relaxed environs of Taiwan or Korea. Then they sit behind their keyboards and play commando all day long attacking people on the internet.
I've seen some of the worst managers imaginable in various "reputable" ESL businesses around Taiwan. All foreigners. Sure, TW bosses are greedy and conniving. But there are some good ones. I just met at least 20 teachers on the plane back from Manilla who's boss had sprung for a long weekend resort retreat down there. I'll trust the Taiwanese boss before I'd ever work in a position that has a foreigner as a manager.
That said, I do have a pretty wide group of friends who are cool. They do like to party, way more than I do. They are social and talented. Artistic poeple that I thouroughly enjoy being around. We talk about music, sports, issues, each other.....you know, like friends do. And they all have one thing in common. They have never posted or read a single word of Daves ESL Cafe, Forumosa.com or any of the other online communities for Taiwanese Expats.
I suggest you take your questions over to TaiwanHo.com. There you will never be treated to a discouraging word. |
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Toe Save
Joined: 04 Oct 2004
Posts: 202
Location: 'tween the pipes.........
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| Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 3:22 am Post subject: |
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Allright guys. I am also calling us marketing tools. We mean more to the bosses in pictures and face-time than actually acomplishing goals in classrooms.
I suggest things so extremely in order that you get my point more clearly. I wax hyperbole, if you'd prefer.
Of course a successful ESL worker must care about their charges. And that means developing a bond. In that sense, yes, we are teachers. We care.
But be real, if a buxibiz could get away without a foreign face, they would. Ken Ho, one of the largest employers of foreigners in Taiwan has often been quoted as saying this very thing. There are plenty of capable Taiwanese that could teach the children A AHH Ant...Why pay a foreigner so much money? Because they represent what the market demands. No foreigners, no customers.
When I deride the profession, it is your personal sense of accomplishment that becomes a most unfortunate victim of collateral damage. For this I am sorry. If you care about your charges, often times more than the actual "school" does, then my hat is off and will always be off to you...The Teacher.
But face it. It's not really in your job description, is it? Make sure they don't complain (read the story about the kid calling the mother from a cell phone while in class because he didn't want to do a writing assignment), make sure they pass the "tests", but not all of them. You must fail 5-15% to show that your "school" isn't too "easy". ANd be as unobtrusive as possible. Never complain about anything. Nor should you suggest anything. A good worker listens and works.
Please.
And don't get me started on the curriculum of the drill....
As for my expulsion from there and my sudden appearance here; let me say that Anthony, Gus and Malc are considered good friends in my book. My former acrimony towards f.com is long been abated. In fact, I just had a beer and a few good laughs with 2 of the big 3 last week.
And I haven't just appeared here. I have been one of ESL Cafe's most prolific posters fro the last 5 years. Due to some perceived indescrition with the editing here on Dave's, I was left with no choice but to retire that ID and pick up again with my true cyber ID of Toe Save. Long time posters easily recognize who I was. |
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tito_suarez
Joined: 28 Apr 2006
Posts: 4
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 6:36 am Post subject: |
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Thats decided it for me.
I'm coming to Taiwan and I'm gunna get drunk everyday and turn up to classes late and not do my job properly.
Bad luck guys, find a new career if you can deal with it. You don't have a monopoly on the place.
Crack open a beer for me dudes.
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha |
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SanChong
Joined: 22 Nov 2005
Posts: 335
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| Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 8:31 am Post subject: |
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Toe Save-
Most of your opinions are right: Many schools are run like a business, and there are problems that I would like to see changed.
However, these are good and easy jobs overall. Ones that we CAN make a difference in. Show me a teacher who resigns himself to thinking, "Oh well, I'll just go through the motions" and you will be showing me a bad teacher. The reality is that a lot of these same problems happen in public schools back home. A lot of problems back home are WORSE. Should the teachers there give up too!?
Once we get into the classroom all the other stuff doesn't matter. We all can make a difference. So many people have crappy jobs, stuck in cubicles back home. This job is great in comparison. Yes, we have to deal with problems, but what job doesn't have problems?
Most jobs don't make much of an individual impact on lives. Teaching DOES make that impact. We all have the opportunity to be a teacher that makes a difference.
To call it babysitting, or to dismiss it as an uworthy profession is distasteful, wrong and not helpful in any kind of substantive way. |
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Toe Save
Joined: 04 Oct 2004
Posts: 202
Location: 'tween the pipes.........
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| Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 9:18 am Post subject: |
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| SanChong wrote: |
Toe Save-
Most of your opinions are right: Many schools are run like a business, and there are problems that I would like to see changed.
However, these are good and easy jobs overall. Ones that we CAN make a difference in. Show me a teacher who resigns himself to thinking, "Oh well, I'll just go through the motions" and you will be showing me a bad teacher. The reality is that a lot of these same problems happen in public schools back home. A lot of problems back home are WORSE. Should the teachers there give up too!?
Once we get into the classroom all the other stuff doesn't matter. We all can make a difference. So many people have crappy jobs, stuck in cubicles back home. This job is great in comparison. Yes, we have to deal with problems, but what job doesn't have problems?
Most jobs don't make much of an individual impact on lives. Teaching DOES make that impact. We all have the opportunity to be a teacher that makes a difference.
To call it babysitting, or to dismiss it as an uworthy profession is distasteful, wrong and not helpful in any kind of substantive way. |
SC,
Thank you for your response. I again apologize for not making myself clear. I am not dismissing you, the professional care-giver, in any way. It is the business that I have problems with. I agree with everything you've said. Everything. It's just that I don't feel that our desire to improve the "business" will ever find eager ears. It is the Taiwanese who are stuck in this mindset. Our (foreigner) intentions are admirable....just unwanted. So, by my tirade against the business, it is my desire to remove the blinders from newbies thinking they are entering the entirely fascinating world of moulding young minds. They are coming here to mould the laobans' wallets.
Have all the integrity you want. I know I do. I take my work very seriously. I just don't kid myself into thinking I am the first choice of my boss. He has plenty of qualified Tw teachers on staff and would happily cut us from the program if he didn't need us for his marketing campaigns. Hell, we have giant posters of us up all over our schools. Half the white faces don't even work here anymore. A boss with integrity would have taken those posters down, nu?
Again, I don't want to ruffle anyone's feathers. Taiwan remains an excellent place to find gainful employment where yes, you can make a difference. Just don't expect to be rewarded (financially) for doing all that you can do. Your charges will appreciate it, but your boss' will suck the marrow from your meat. |
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Toe Save
Joined: 04 Oct 2004
Posts: 202
Location: 'tween the pipes.........
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| Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 9:19 am Post subject: |
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| In other words, see it as a business first and you won't be so disappointed when stuff like Big Wally's recent experience happens. And it will happen. To each and everyone of us. |
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SanChong
Joined: 22 Nov 2005
Posts: 335
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| Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 4:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Thank you for your response. I again apologize for not making myself clear. I am not dismissing you, the professional care-giver, in any way. It is the business that I have problems with. I agree with everything you've said. Everything. It's just that I don't feel that our desire to improve the "business" will ever find eager ears. It is the Taiwanese who are stuck in this mindset. Our (foreigner) intentions are admirable....just unwanted. |
There are plenty of Taiwanese who care deeply about education. Stereotyping all of them as money hungry, inadequate educators is just not true. And many of them do care about our intentions and what we do. Our opinions are many times wanted.
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So, by my tirade against the business, it is my desire to remove the blinders from newbies thinking they are entering the entirely fascinating world of moulding young minds. They are coming here to mould the laobans' wallets.
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You don't like the business, so you want to discourage newbies? Does this mean we can't "mold young minds". Surely we can, just as much as we can back home. To any new teacher: It is YOUR classroom. There are challenges and there are difficulties, but you CAN make a difference.
In public schools back home, there are crappy principals and violent kids with guns and totally unmotivated students. Those problems are just as big. People who see beyond that and do the best they can do make a difference.
| Quote: |
| Have all the integrity you want. I know I do. I take my work very seriously. I just don't kid myself into thinking I am the first choice of my boss. He has plenty of qualified Tw teachers on staff and would happily cut us from the program if he didn't need us for his marketing campaigns. Hell, we have giant posters of us up all over our schools. Half the white faces don't even work here anymore. A boss with integrity would have taken those posters down, nu? |
I don't follow your logic here at all. Advertisers use all sorts of images all the time. Does a Western Company have no integrity for using a celebrity in their ads? Schools use Western faces in ads to show that they are a language school. What is wrong with that?
| Quote: |
| Again, I don't want to ruffle anyone's feathers. Taiwan remains an excellent place to find gainful employment where yes, you can make a difference. Just don't expect to be rewarded (financially) for doing all that you can do. Your charges will appreciate it, but your boss' will suck the marrow from your meat. |
There are bad bosses out there. There are also very good bosses out there. Just like home. As we have discussed often, you need to find good schools, or a good recruiter (like Reach To Teach or Dewey) to make sure you are at an honest school.
For the record: You DO ruffle people's feathers. Your posts are well written and often useful (I loved the Fink one), but they also tend to be attacking and one sided. |
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mpan
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 35
Location: Taoyuan, Taiwan
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| Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 6:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Toe save ...... ???? i have never had a different name on this forum. I don't know where you get that. You were so bold as to say "[my] example is merely testimony to [my] inability to size up candidates." Where in that post did you read that i was the one sizing up the candidates? I have never done the hiring or firing for any school i have worked for. I merely do my job properly and therefore when a moron pulls a run I am the one that is called on to clean up the mess. There is a simple reason I agree to this ..... if i don't cover the classes the school loses students and that will mess with my paycheck. Yet another example of a foreign teacher ... scratch that ... babysitter that simply can not read. Funny how you will attack Mr. Finkle for what seemed like no reason at all yet you will go to this length to defend another person that will, in all likelyhood, end up being a drooling meatsack that none of us would like to work with. Oh i like your picture .... do you aspire to be the retard in the middle or would you rather be the one with his hand in the retard's pants? |
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Kelly McCauley
Joined: 07 Sep 2006
Posts: 4
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| Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 10:57 pm Post subject: I STARTED A WAR!!!! |
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Hello Everyone.
Apparently I started an online forum war. I am new to the site and am unsure if this is a regular thing. I�m sorry if I have offended any of you. I have listing 4 AMONG MANY of my concerns for coming to Asia in my VERY FIRST post. I just wanted to test the waters as far as online forums go and perhaps score an inside scoop on these 4 particular aspects. I believe I have received more than what I asked for!!!!
I do of course have concerns for accommodations, teaching, culture, ETC!. However, was planning on leaving these questions up to the job placement/ traveling aid program I have enrolled in AND was planning on completing more research on my own, thus being able to ask some more specific questions later! I guess just haven�t really got too deep as far as research goes!
The aim of my post was to just get a general idea of where to go to teach!??? I originally posed on the General Asia forum and was advised by Furiousmilksheikali
to post on the Taiwan forum!!!
For those whom are offended by my post, I am sorry. HOWEVER! It is nice to see that people will go to great measure to protect the Taiwanese culture and education.
Among many things! I am looking to have a safe, fun, cultural experience WHILE doing something that I love and believe am good at: TEACHING-- thus, giving something back to the people of Taiwan (or where ever I decide to go!)
Thank you all so much for your post. Some of them are really helpful. Keep them coming if you have any more constructive* advice!
FOR THE RECORD:
1) I am a VERY hard worker and have worked as both a teacher and tutor. Teaching is something that I take VERY seriously.
2) I would NOT describe myself as a DRUNK or a STONER (AS I DO NOT SMOKE ANYTHING!) NOR realize that Canadians had such an unfortunate reputation in Taiwan.
All in all, I am still unsure where to go!!!! |
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dangerousapple
Joined: 18 Apr 2006
Posts: 292
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| Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 12:18 am Post subject: |
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| Welcome Kelly McCauley! That was a much clearer post. Let me be the first to apologize for assuming you fit a certain stereotype. Taiwan is a great place to live and work, and there are plenty of job opportunities...both good and bad. There are also plenty of us loudmouths around ready to give advice...both good and bad. I believe it is possible to both make a difference in childrens' lives and make some good money. There are schools here that genuinely care about the kids and care about the teachers too. Keep researching, and post more questions...just be prepared for some strong answers from time to time. |
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SanChong
Joined: 22 Nov 2005
Posts: 335
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| Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 3:58 am Post subject: |
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Hi Kelly,
Thanks for a great post and I 2nd everything Dangerous Apple said. It's also a GREAT reflection of your character that you clarified what you wrote, instead of getting upset. I'm not sure I could have done the same! We did assume too much about you!
Anyway, it sounds like you would do very well here in Taiwan. If you need general advice about Taiwan, or the job search, then feel free to ask us here.
You can also feel free to Private Message me.
Good luck! |
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