Job Discussion Forums

[foster]

I can see where it would come off as racist, but on the other hand, these are our observations and in some cases experiences. I think it is rather unfair to accuse of of racism when we are simply telling what happened to us and what we have been through.

No, not all western men change...and by discussing them in this light, we could be considered racist against all western men as well if that is your definition.

However, there is a large majority of men who take advantage of the situation, as do the Japanese girls. There have been past posts on this page as well as others simply asking where are the hot girls in Japan. If that is their only reason for going to Japan, that is in poor form...and again, I have had men tell me this...that finding a Japanese girlfriend was one, if not the main, reason for coming here.

I tend to think that western women go for the experience more than the dating scene.

As far as western men being a decoration like a LV handbag, I could see where that would be the case. Some western men use women (not just Japanese) the same way. Again, western men are somewhat of a commodity in Japan and therefore they are sought after. Western women, well, not as much. I have also had Japanese women tell me that they loathe the western men because of their attitude and that they know the western men view Japanese girls as "yellow cabs" - everyone gets a ride. Some of the Japanese girl know what the western men are after and are smart enough to stay away from them. Others, well, ....their choice I guess.

Western men in Japan, for some part, are rather deplorable creatures. Their motives are dishonest and they are there for a good time, not a long time.

[nomadder]

Oh mr.pink. Please do tell me what my problems are as you must know me so well(not). All women who have responded either on the thread or via PM are in agreement so I'm afraid your personal attack will not wash. Alas I do not see you or the others giving a shred of evidence to the contrary. From this I can only surmise you to be a 3 dressed up as a 9 like so many others. If you take offense then it is only what you need for your personal growth. Happy learning.

[markosonlines]

I'm a 3 dressed up as a nine.

The reason why I'm a nine here is partly because, having grown up in a liberal society where women have a lot of freedom, I am liberal myself and am happy to cook, clean and listen to my partners opinions.

Former western girlfriends of mine have been willing to listen to my opinions they weren't very capable of cooking or cleaning, at least not without feeling [i]submissive[/i].

I look food, especially delicious food, and I like to live in a clean house too. My Japanese girlfriend can cook and clean (like me). I prefer my Japanese girlfriend.

Hence, a three becomes a nine - or in some cases a nine, like some of you are back in N. America or wherever you're from, becomes a three. I know where I'm appreciated, do you?

[rockwolf]

Hmm... I'm a 3, and in Japan I'm a 3.

As a white male, I had about the same luck in love in Japan as I do here in America. But in Japan I was just as shy as in the states.

Several of the other American guys who had no luck stateside became 'superstuds' on the campus. But the issue was more of being aggressive.

I'm not aggressive, therefor I had no luck

They were aggressive in Japan, although they were normally very shy in the states. I think it's the view that Japanese girls are more eager to meet Western men that causes a lot of these men to take the more aggressive stance in dating that they're used to.

Some guys start to view western women with a bit of bitterness also. The idea that they suddenly are attractive to Japanese women gets to their egos, and the women from their home soil who wouldn't give them the time of day are demanding to be treated with respect? Let's just say a grudge can last a very long time.



As for the guys that go to Japan just to meet women, they have already earned my contempt. I'm trying like crazy to get back to the country I love, with no expectations of becoming some pimp-daddy. I love Japan for the countryside, the people, and the culture. The best experiences a person can have are likely the ones that don't involve sexual gratification. Give me a bike, a lonely winding road through the mountains, and a random soda machine in the middle of nowhere, and I'm a happy guy.

[easyasabc]

[easyasabc]

Rockwolf,

Your names suits because .........

YOU ROCK!

Come on back to Japan and you can hang with us girls!

[canuck]

[markosonlines]

Easyasabc, I proclaimed myself a 3. I never said I couldn't get the cool girls (like you?). Most of my former girlfriends were cool. They just couldn't/didn't cook and clean much, unlike my Japanese girlfriend whom I must ask to stop! I left them to their fabulous, stylish, educated, articulate friends to do things with, having had enough of it, and am now enjoying something better.

So I didn't miss out as you imply, I simply chose to be with someone different and, like Canuck, would appreciate it if the label 'loser back home' was applied a little more discriminately, to people who didn't simply have the pleasure of dating Japanese women whilst in Japan. But perhaps my preference has defined me as a loser in your eyes?

I couldn't agree with you more that people who have a clue don't have stupid issues like feeling submissive over cooking. My comments were in response to foster, whom you may or may not recall, claimed:

[i]I read it described on another forum as the 2-10 idea. Men that were a '2' in their home country come to Japan to find that they are treated as though they are a '10'. Western women don't do this, so they avoid us. We tell them like it is. We don't coodle them and tell them oh poor baby and cook and clean up after them. Many Japanese women do this.[/i]

Such a crime, coodling and doing things for one another. My girlfriend is guilty of all three. I, in the meantime, hold a job. Traditional gender roles. So what? What's your gripe? Nobody cooking your dinner while you clock out at work? Poor baby.

Yet your arguments have merit, I am not trying to silence you. I have met guys over here and in Korea who become players and would be average joes back home. It would be appreciated, and helpful for this discussion more generally, if you didn't paint us all with the same brush.

Try using the words 'some' and 'quite a few' with your new found fabulous, stylish, educated, articulate friends.

Such efforts will not stop this discussion from becoming nasty and petty though. It started as such.

[nomadder]

I agree about Rockwolf. Rock on. With that sort of attitude anyone could become a 9.

As to Canuck-the reason women are afraid to post on the forum is because they are afraid of the wrath of men like you. Luckily Foster and I are not.

If you didn't know that this is what most Western women think while in Japan then I guess this is a newsflash for you. It does seem a good way to separate the wheat from the chaff or the Rockwolves from the Canucks.

[canuck]

@nomadder,

So you're speaking on behalf of most women in Japan. Please, point blank restate your points. Or maybe I can ask some questions and you can respond.

1. Are you disgruntled due to the fact that you are dating less in Japan than in your home country?

2. Do you feel inadequate comparing yourself to Japanese women who date non Japanese? If so, why. If not, please state why not.

3. Is it a step down because some men in Japan date Japanese women?

4. Do you think there is always a communication barrier where couples are unable to communicate or do you believe it is possible for a couple from different countries to communicate effectively?

5. What do you think the main reason many non Japanese men stay in Japan longer than non Japanese women?

6. What do you say to all the non Japanese women that date Japanese men?

7. In a society that looks down upon "bigger" people to some extent, do you feel fat comparing yourself to Japanese women?

8. If you subscribe to an idea that many of the guys in Japan date Japanese women because they can't get dates back home or are a "2" in their home country, why would you want to date them in Japan or care if they are unavailable to date you because they are dating a Japanese woman?

9. Do you think saying having many PMs strengthens your point of view?

10. Does PMs stand for private message or premenstrual?

Please state the newsflash and explain why. Let's have a discussion. If you feel you can battle me linguistically, please try. And please back up your arguments.

Furthermore, why would women be afraid to post on this forum because they are afraid of the "wrath of men like you" mean? First you want to date us, but feel like you can't. Then you get angry and post on the internet with a spokesman type method saying that non Japanese women don't get the dating breaks and are sad, and herald people for saying they actually enjoy keeping a clean house and cooking. Simply silly.

I await your answers to my questions. Please feel free to post your questions in a direct way. If our wrath is too strong, maybe you can collectively have your friends email you their responses so that you can step up to the soapbox and speak for the lot. It takes courage in a hostile environment like this, doesn't it?

To all the women that PM'ed nomadder, please post your oppinion. It's often better having a discussion directly instead of having hearsay and 2nd hand information from a biased speaker unwilling to look at facts presented before her.

Sincerly,

Farmboy from Canada who separated wheat and got up early in the morning 180 straight days to feed my 12 brothers and sisters wearing a parka during the summer months of our nordic summer.

[easyasabc]

[rockwolf]

If I may interject quickly about the 'many,' 'some,' and 'most,' quantifiers. We also have to take into consideration that a lot of the situations and examples used are of the most visible sort. There are likely a considerable number of men (non-Japanese) who are not figured into these arguments because they are not that visible.

Who is visible?

The guys that go to huge bars frequented by young Japanese women to go fishing for nookie. The guys that obviously ogle and comment on women. The guys who are aggressive. This goes for Japan AND home soil.

Who is invisible?

The guys that prefer small bars, with a handful of friends, and a karaoke box (well, karaoke is optional ). The guys who may glance or descreetly 'check out' an attractive member of the preferred sex. And the guys who head straight home after work to watch a movie or get back to that really good book, (or lively forum argument).



As for the 2-10 argument, yes, there are men who follow that identifier. There's also examples of men who went from 10-2. My friend Stephen, who was in the same college way up in Akita as me, looked like Brad Pitt (like in Fight Club, not Seven Years in Tibet), and could have been scoring left and right in BuraaPii crazed Japan. But he didn't. He kept himself rather invisible, hanging out with a close-knit group of friends, surfing the net, and going to Aikido dojos. Just another shy guy who would have been off the scale, but didn't make that effort.

Then again, there was Rennis, another cool guy, but became pimp-mack-daddy in Japan with so many notches in his bedpost it started to look like some neo-punk wooden ikebana. Regardless, stateside he claimed to have no chance with the ladies whatsoever. Once again, it came down to being assertive and visible. If there was a huge party, he was there, even though he didn't drink.

So here we are, judging the assertive and visible guys, but leaving the unassertive and invisible guys out of the equation.

Now, there's also the unassertive and nice fellas who managed to get a girlfriend, there's quite a few of them too, and they (usually) treated their girlfriends with respect, regardless of whether or not those girls are Japanese or non-Japanese.

Coming from me, another invisible guy, there are a LOT of us invisibles who do not appreciate these 'pervo-western-guy' arguments, because we are/were not in Japan for the girls. We are/were in Japan just to be in Japan, because we love Japan.

Thank you, and feel free to flame me now.

[markosonlines]

Rockwolf,

I'm starting to like you too.

You've brought valid points to the thread. Hopefully we can all get past taunting each other and drag out a thoughtful discussion out of this.

Easyasabc,

My bad for implying my former girlfriends felt submissive when cooking or cleaning. It was an assumption based on the point that they rarely did so, there may be other reasons. As for using the words 'some' or 'quite a few', I meant in regard to western men, not women.

More generally, this thread has been littered with overarching claims about western men who date Japanese women and I find this insulting to myself and my girlfriend. Why?

She is not a 'yellow cab'

I am not a 'deplorable creature'

Now, thanks to Rockwolf, we have a chance for a real discussion. The only question is are we up to it? As I have already questioned the very nature and purpose of this thread I won't be holding my breath.

[nomadder]

In response to Canuck. Alot of what you wrote refers to others' posts, not mine. If you were paying attention you would have seen that it was my friend who made this statement and there is also a post where I refer to Japan as there-meaning I am no longer there. As for the PMs, the authors want their privacy and some of it would get this thread deleted. Think of why some(NOT ALL) men go to Thailand if you want an idea.

Maybe things were unclear but let me say that I don't have it out for all Japanese women. I had and still have Japanese women friends. They were the new, stronger types who stood up to their husbands and boyfriends if they needed to and who had a variety of interests. And NOT ALL Western men use them unfairly. There seemed to be some good relationships. Many women said they dated Western males because Japanese men were not enough for them.

That being said I mainly dated Japanese men as the Western ones I met were scary drunks or had other problems. See SOME of the above. And if being fake was what it took to get someone I wasn't interested.

By the way Guest of Japan

Happy Wedding!!!

[canuck]

@rockwolf, I think you made some excellent points. It often comes down to personality and opportunity. Some prefer the wide open bar scene and others do prefer the slower pace.

@nomadder, why would the authors of the secret, private messages get deleted? Can't they form a non profanity laced statement? Are you incinuating that some men that go to Thailand because they want a gay relationship? Please clarify. I don't know how that comes into this discussion. Who cares if your PM support group is filled with lesbians with an opinion? Weird misdirection.

I still wish you had the "sushi" to answer my questions..............