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womblingfree
Joined: 04 Mar 2006
Posts: 826
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 Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2006 3:46 pm Post subject: |
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| SeasonedVet wrote: |
I am all for empirical evidence. It is the teachers who go at it day afer day that begin to realize patterns and notice exceptions and anomolies etc. |
The trouble is that it's usually the teachers, especially in Japanese eikaiwa where they are likely to have no formal teaching knowledge or second language knowledge, who misinterpret and pass judgement on the students.
The excerpt I gave was in response to a group of eikaiwa teachers that I interviewed who gave feedback on how they felt that Japanese were shy and lacked 'critical thinking' skills and how this meant that it was hard for them to learn English.
These were largely just stereotypes being bandied about through laziness and not taking into consideration other factors, whilst making little to no effort to learn another language themselves.
Who lacked the critical thinking skills? Arguably the teachers.
Now if anyone could point me to a place that would publish my 14,000 word dissertation and findings I'd be very grateful!  |
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furiousmilksheikali
Joined: 31 Jul 2006
Posts: 1660
Location: In a coffee shop, splitting a 30,000 yen tab with Sekiguchi.
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| Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2006 3:53 pm Post subject: |
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| womblingfree wrote: |
| SeasonedVet wrote: |
I am all for empirical evidence. It is the teachers who go at it day afer day that begin to realize patterns and notice exceptions and anomolies etc. |
The trouble is that it's usually the teachers, especially in Japanese eikaiwa where they are likely to have no formal teaching knowledge or second language knowledge, who misinterpret and pass judgement on the students.
The excerpt I gave was in response to a group of eikaiwa teachers that I interviewed who gave feedback on how they felt that Japanese were shy and lacked 'critical thinking' skills and how this meant that it was hard for them to learn English.
These were largely just stereotypes being bandied about through laziness and not taking into consideration other factors, whilst making little to no effort to learn another language themselves.
Who lacked the critical thinking skills? Arguably the teachers. |
I agree with you that the sample group that you interviewed are largely a poor authority to judge the critical thinking ability of their students.
It is something that causes me a lot of annoyance (and I have posted on this before) that a lot of eikaiwa teachers seem to expect the students to give detailed analytical reasons for their ideas when it may not be the intelligence that they lack but the English skills to express them. You are also correct in identifying the fact that anyone who has insufficient appreciation of the difficulty of learning another language is likely to be unsympathetic to their students' reticence. |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 12:34 am Post subject: |
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| I think we all agree that critical thinking skills as we know them in the west don't seem to be 'formally taught" here in Japan to any significant degree. |
For what it's worth, I don't recall ever seeing a course in this from kindergarten to graduate school in the US. It certainly isn't a standard course!
We learn differently.
That said, I can tell you quite clearly that my Japanese teachers of English in high school here have complained that students don't have much in the way of critical thinking skills in their own language. |
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SeasonedVet
Joined: 28 Aug 2006
Posts: 236
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 12:45 am Post subject: |
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womblingfree wrote:
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| The trouble is that it's usually the teachers, especially in Japanese eikaiwa where they are likely to have no formal teaching knowledge or second language knowledge, who misinterpret and pass judgement on the students. |
Oh sorry I am not disagreeing with this.
Maybe I should have said more experienced teachers.
I think that after time if those teachers stay for a while they get to realize what they are doing wrong and they get to realize patterns. Any teacher who has been here for 2 or 3 years or more begins to seee the same patterns in the way students act and react in classroom situations. And gradually they come to notice ( by observation and sharing information) better ways of doing things.
But that all depends on the teacher and how much he/she is willing to learn and improve.
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These were largely just stereotypes being bandied about through laziness and not taking into consideration other factors, whilst making little to no effort to learn another language themselves.
Who lacked the critical thinking skills? Arguably the teachers. |
yep it happens. so I should have said more experienced serious openminded teachers.
But this behavior you mentioned is not limited to Japan though. It can be found among teachers back where we come from. |
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SeasonedVet
Joined: 28 Aug 2006
Posts: 236
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 1:01 am Post subject: |
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Glenski wrote:
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I think we all agree that critical thinking skills as we know them in the west don't seem to be 'formally taught" here in Japan to any significant degree.
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| For what it's worth, I don't recall ever seeing a course in this from kindergarten to graduate school in the US. It certainly isn't a standard course! |
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Critical thinking skill can be found on the curricula/syllabuses at schools.
I am not from the US and I don't know what obtains there but I could find out and I have no doubt that you will find it listed on the school curricula/syllabuses.
I certainly didn't mean that you enter a class to teach Critical Thinking Skills 101 and say "today students we are going to be doing critical thinking skills" although there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.
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| I can tell you quite clearly that my Japanese teachers of English in high school here have complained that students don't have much in the way of critical thinking skills in their own language. |
How about the teachers that complained? How good are they? If the teachers don't show the students how it's done then the students won't know either.Critical thinking skills can be picked up along the way as you go through life and/or students/people can be taught how to think critically. |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 1:11 am Post subject: |
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Critical thinking skill can be found on the curricula/syllabuses at schools.
I am not from the US and I don't know what obtains there but I could find out and I have no doubt that you will find it listed on the school curricula/syllabuses.
I certainly didn't mean that you enter a class to teach Critical Thinking Skills 101 |
These differently colored statements seem to contradict each other, Seasoned Vet. I'm not really sure what you mean. I'd like to point out that Sweetsee may have been asking more about secondary education than tertiary.
I would be very interested in knowing what sort of courses where you come from are offered for teaching these skills. I will look into American courses, but for the moment, I seriously doubt that the majority of schools offer anything that specific.
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| How about the teachers that complained? How good are they? If the teachers don't show the students how it's done then the students won't know either.Critical thinking skills can be picked up along the way as you go through life and/or students/people can be taught how to think critically. |
I certainly can't speak for every teacher there. I know mostly the English teachers, but I had lots of contact with the science and math teachers, too. Most of them were excellent. I do agree that critical thinking skills can (and probably are picked up along the way. As far as English courses go, I have to admit that Japanese students don't get much instruction in thinking critically unless they are in a debate course or something related, and even then it depends on how it is structured and taught that makes the difference.
Sweetsee started this whole thread. How about chiming in? Plenty has been written so far to stimulate your own critical thinking. Have people here provided enough answers, or are we off base from what you wanted? |
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guest of Japan
Joined: 28 Feb 2003
Posts: 1601
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 2:23 am Post subject: |
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The development of critical thinking skills is a focus in most subjects in American education. It is not a stand alone course, but rather a target within the various curriculums.
The level of focus it garners has gone up and down in recent history. Traditionalists tend to stress that education should only be the transmission of information, while progressives stress the development or critical thinking skills as the primary focus on education. For the last 15 to 20 years American education has been taking the progessive track. |
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SeasonedVet
Joined: 28 Aug 2006
Posts: 236
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 2:44 am Post subject: |
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Glenski,
I am not sure how
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| Critical thinking skill can be found on the curricula/syllabuses at schools. |
contradicts this
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| I certainly didn't mean that you enter a class to teach Critical Thinking Skills 101 and say "today students we are going to be doing critical thinking skills" |
if you are referring to the 101 it wasn't meant to be taken seriously. I know the OP is talking about High School not college. I was just usuing the 101 as the form of basic lesson number one. (maybe out of place here? sorry for the confusion)
Critical Thinking is taught as a "course" in colleges in the US and elsewhere but not as a course or subject in High Schools.
However crtical thinking can be found on the English curriculum ( and across the board/subjects) in any wording that includes teaching kids how to think, compare, contrast, evaluate, problem solve, analyze, find similarities or differences, fearure analysis, cause and effect and asking good questions to mention some.
k 1-12 Teachers (in the US and elsewhere) have been attending workshops to improve on these and to focus more on teaching critical thinking as more research has shown that crtical thinking can actually be taught. research is ongoing.
When teachers are writing their lesson plans they will then need to write somewhere in the objective section maybe something like this: students will think critically/scintifically to solve/discuss/conclude by using a process or elimination/through discussion/ to evaluate to discriminate between/show differences in/ to question etc etc.
So what I am saying is that these things are written in the curricula and syllabuses but I don't mean as a subject or a course but you will find them as mentioned above. |
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womblingfree
Joined: 04 Mar 2006
Posts: 826
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| Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 3:06 am Post subject: |
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| guest of Japan wrote: |
The development of critical thinking skills is a focus in most subjects in American education. It is not a stand alone course, but rather a target within the various curriculums.
The level of focus it garners has gone up and down in recent history. Traditionalists tend to stress that education should only be the transmission of information, while progressives stress the development or critical thinking skills as the primary focus on education. For the last 15 to 20 years American education has been taking the progessive track. |
Then why are American students lagging behind their global contemporaries in terms of critical thinking skills according to what limited research has been done? The development of such skills isn't just the end product of education (in fact education may play an insignificant role in many cases). It's also the product of upbringing and external social influence.
The hidden curriculum of schools, which you're talking about, will vary from school to school, state to state. If you're living in the Bible Belt and going to a private church school then you will be receiving a completely different education from a public school in the Bronx.
I would say that certain aspects of American and European education in fact stifle individuality and freedom of thought just as much as anything in Japan. Fraternities are an obvious example, but there is a more subtle (and unsubtle) social segregation going on which forces people to conform unquestioningly. Even rebels tend to rebel in the same ways.
The aim of schools is to produce citizens that fit into and are beneficial to society, this is the hidden curriculum which will vary from school to school. In this respect Japanese schools have exactly the same aim as anywhere else.
A definition of 'critical thinking is:
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| Critical thinking is the intellectually disciplined process of actively and skillfully conceptualizing, applying, analyzing, synthesizing, and/or evaluating information gathered from, or generated by, observation, experience, reflection, reasoning, or communication, as a guide to belief and action. In its exemplary form, it is based on universal intellectual values that transcend subject matter divisions: clarity, accuracy, precision, consistency, relevance, sound evidence, good reasons, depth, breadth, and fairness. |
Simply being willing to put yourself forward in a debate and being confident is not the be all and end all of the process.
Still waters run deep  |
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J.
Joined: 03 May 2003
Posts: 327
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| Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 3:46 am Post subject: That lets out the politicians. |
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From definition of critical thinking:
"clarity, accuracy, precision, consistency, relevance, sound evidence, good reasons, depth, breadth, and fairness."
If this is the criteria, most of the world politicians I fear have NOT learned critical thinking, which might explain the state of the planet right now.
WF, your dissertation seems a bit long for a Journal article, but if you could condense it into something smaller, maybe JALT Journal or The Language Teacher would be interested. Or an American Education Journal, since it seems to be as much about American students.
OR, you might try whipping it up into an Educational Controversy and making a book to publish in Japan and maybe America. Good luck. I'll buy a copy. 
Doesn't critical thinking also include examining the evidence and coming up with your own ideas? That's not easy for anybody, I'd say, and must vary a lot between individuals. Also, in Japan, I've observed original ideas are often a bit intimidating to express in a group and sometimes no one wants to be the first to express them. A lot of work needs to be done to develop a safe atmosphere where "different" ideas are seen as okay to express. |
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gaijinalways
Joined: 29 Nov 2005
Posts: 2279
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| Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 7:00 am Post subject: |
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This was part of my point earlier. I haven't seen a lot of original ideas here, but of course this a is a mark of a lot of thinkers, being able to reorganize ideas, summarize, and analyze them..
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Even rebels tend to rebel in the same ways.
The aim of schools is to produce citizens that fit into and are beneficial to society, this is the hidden curriculum which will vary from school to school. In this respect Japanese schools have exactly the same aim as anywhere else. |
Yes, and this seems to be more successful until recently in Japan.
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| It is something that causes me a lot of annoyance (and I have posted on this before) that a lot of eikaiwa teachers seem to expect the students to give detailed analytical reasons for their ideas when it may not be the intelligence that they lack but the English skills to express them. You are also correct in identifying the fact that anyone who has insufficient appreciation of the difficulty of learning another language is likely to be unsympathetic to their students' reticence. |
Even Japanese university students that I have had with the language skills seem to not have considered the reasons behind why they do certain things. Some of the most frustrating moments are with students who seem to not consider much, something often encouraged in Japanese culture (and some other Asian cultures). Oftn thought here is given to doing what others want you to do, rather than doing what is best or for some other particular reason beyond pleasing the group. That is often why people talk about Confucius being from China, but it's in Japan where you see more of his influence. When ou do something for the group, you don't often have to think about why you yourself wanted to do it. |
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Chris21
Joined: 30 Apr 2006
Posts: 366
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 7:07 am Post subject: |
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| Simply being willing to put yourself forward in a debate and being confident is not the be all and end all of the process. |
From the last half-dozen or so posts, I think people acknowledge that anxiety and displaying ciritcal thinking are separate influences upon speaking. I agree that anxiety is often miscontrued as a lack of critical thinking skills, especially by eikaiwa teachers who have little or no language training/education. However, putting that issue aside - it appears that there is a divide as to whether Japanese students have the same degree of critical thinking skills as Western students. Personally, I don't think they do. It was suggested that critical thinking skills are taught in American schools. While they aren't explicitly taught in a C.T. 101 class, I certainly remember almost all of my classes (in high school and university) being underpinned by them. I was constantly being told to question and re-evaluate, while in Japan it seems that deferring to authority is culturally important. On more than a few occasions, I've found myself politely disgreeing with a Japanese colleague, only to be greeted with mortified looks of disbelief that I could committ such an egregious social faux-pas.
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| Then why are American students lagging behind their global contemporaries in terms of critical thinking skills according to what limited research has been done? |
I would be surprised if the above were true. I would be even more surprised if Japanese students weren't in the lower-tier of industrialized nations in terms of critical thinking. |
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SeasonedVet
Joined: 28 Aug 2006
Posts: 236
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 1:45 pm Post subject: |
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J. wrote:
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| in Japan, I've observed original ideas are often a bit intimidating to express in a group and sometimes no one wants to be the first to express them |
This is where Womblingfree's article comes in. This is where reticence ( or what might appear to be reticence) can be misconstrued as a lack of critical thinking skills.
and here Chris 21 and gaijinalways are getting back at the main point again about whether or not the students here possess the critical thinking skills on par with their western counterparts
Chris21 wrote:
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| it appears that there is a divide as to whether Japanese students have the same degree of critical thinking skills as Western students. Personally, I don't think they do. |
gaijinalways wrote:
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| Oftn thought here is given to doing what others want you to do, rather than doing what is best or for some other particular reason beyond pleasing the group. |
Is there any way we can find out for sure? I think I have read two instances where teachers were interviewed. How about if the students themselves were tested or checked on their ability to use critical thinking skills.
OR even if they don't possess or don't effectively use crtical thinking skills how about if a lesson(s) was done to encourage the students to thibk critically in the lesson and see how they do.
I think something like that is the closest you'll get to finding out.
My statement earlier about empirical evidence and teachers I wasn't referring specifically to eikaiwa teachers though. In the US about 10-15 years ago teachers have been encouraged to publish. I am not talking about PHD candidates writing a dissertation or a University professor publishing his "mandatory" work. I am talking about teachers in the field every day. They are the ones who go at it every day so they know. And they have been publishing.
It is noteworthy that the layman (layperson?) in the field does not always agree with the person who published their work who did so off of research and interviews.
I think it is a good idea to have teachers publishing.
And I see womblingfree is likely to do so? |
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guest of Japan
Joined: 28 Feb 2003
Posts: 1601
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 6:19 pm Post subject: |
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| womblingfree wrote: |
| guest of Japan wrote: |
The development of critical thinking skills is a focus in most subjects in American education. It is not a stand alone course, but rather a target within the various curriculums.
The level of focus it garners has gone up and down in recent history. Traditionalists tend to stress that education should only be the transmission of information, while progressives stress the development or critical thinking skills as the primary focus on education. For the last 15 to 20 years American education has been taking the progessive track. |
Then why are American students lagging behind their global contemporaries in terms of critical thinking skills according to what limited research has been done? The development of such skills isn't just the end product of education (in fact education may play an insignificant role in many cases). It's also the product of upbringing and external social influence.
The hidden curriculum of schools, which you're talking about, will vary from school to school, state to state. If you're living in the Bible Belt and going to a private church school then you will be receiving a completely different education from a public school in the Bronx.
I would say that certain aspects of American and European education in fact stifle individuality and freedom of thought just as much as anything in Japan. Fraternities are an obvious example, but there is a more subtle (and unsubtle) social segregation going on which forces people to conform unquestioningly. Even rebels tend to rebel in the same ways.
The aim of schools is to produce citizens that fit into and are beneficial to society, this is the hidden curriculum which will vary from school to school. In this respect Japanese schools have exactly the same aim as anywhere else.
A definition of 'critical thinking is:
| Quote: |
| Critical thinking is the intellectually disciplined process of actively and skillfully conceptualizing, applying, analyzing, synthesizing, and/or evaluating information gathered from, or generated by, observation, experience, reflection, reasoning, or communication, as a guide to belief and action. In its exemplary form, it is based on universal intellectual values that transcend subject matter divisions: clarity, accuracy, precision, consistency, relevance, sound evidence, good reasons, depth, breadth, and fairness. |
Simply being willing to put yourself forward in a debate and being confident is not the be all and end all of the process.
Still waters run deep |
Where I am most knowledgeable is in the field of history education. I'm currently reading a book called "History Trials: Culture Wars and the Teaching of the Past" by Nash, Crabtree and Dunn. The book chronicals the efforts in the 90s to create national standards in history and social studies teaching and the firestorm that happened after the standards were created. It also goes into great depth into how history was viewed and taught throughout American history as well as some samplings from other nations throughout the world. Critical thinking skills have long took a backseat to the instillation of patriotism in America, Japan, and England. As American education is under the power of states and local communities areas which are more liberal tend to favor the develpment of critical thinking skills and multiculturalism, while conservative areas favor traditional "fact" based history education to instill patriotism and create a citizenry of shared values.
I joined this discussion simply to give some background info for Glenski's question. The title of the thread itself is an expression or racism. Japanese students have no greater or lesser capacity for critical thinking than any other peoples of the world. |
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SeasonedVet
Joined: 28 Aug 2006
Posts: 236
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 9:55 pm Post subject: |
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guest of Japan wrote:
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| The title of the thread itself is an expression or racism. Japanese students have no greater or lesser capacity for critical thinking than any other peoples of the world. |
That's why I bracketed the word "capacity" in one of my earlier posts and stated that the capacity is there:
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| OP if you want to compare Japanese to their international counterparts as you said with regards to critical thinking (capacity) the capacity is there but maybe it is not encouraged so much here as Group decisions are the norm. You go along with the group decision OR you go along with the group Leader's decision. Thereby obviating the need for any critical thinking. |
I am not sure if the OP meant to use the word capacity, maybe maybe not. I was thinking maybe not but we'd have to let the OP answer that. |
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