Job Discussion Forums

[yaramaz]

At my school in deepest, darkest Turkey (a k-12 private college), there are only four or five foreigners at most during the year. We live together in three flats on campus. We are each others' support network. I don't know how I would have coped without them, as the Turkish teachers, although friendly, are aloof and sometimes reluctant to befriend us-- partly due to language differences and a lot due to the fact that we make triple their salary and get free rent and get a week off at Xmas that they have to cover for us. There was a lot of barely veiled contempt for us, as they thought we weren't real teachers (read: we teach listening and speaking, etc, as opposed to the grammar they teach) and didn't earn our exorbitant salaries (600 brit pounds, in case you were wondering). EFLers aren't always ruthless and cut throat. On the Turkey forum, we seem to be less nasty than on the Newby forum. I think it should be this way in all the forums. There is no real good reason to attack each other, especially those just starting out. We have enough attacks coming at us from all sides anyway in our jobs and adopted cultures. Last year I dealt with rich, spoiled loonie kids and their nasty lunatic parents, I dealt with so much gossip by the turks because I didn't hide he fact that I had a turkish boyfriend (ergo, I'm a *beep*--- the turkish women in my region, it seems, hide their relationships until they are engaged), I dealt with trying to learn a language that no one would help me learn but still expected me to master after 5 months by just listening...

I'm curious to know why people think it's good form to be brutal and nasty to folks only making earnest enquiries. Would you be like so in person???????

[MindTraveller]

Cruelty and nastiness (flames) are often a male form of communication.

[double agent]

the nastiest thing i have ever seen
was a female teacher making up
lies and destrustion to her weekend ACTIVITIES.

All the while wearing a mini and lipstick and rubbing the
groins of the married expats to freak out the other girls.
then inviting them shopping.

Now that is MESSED up. You wont see a man gropping
the women of a married dude then inviting the dude out
shopping.

sure male violence, but hey...not at work...well not that often

[RachelA_Broad]

Ok, I feel like I am going to get flamed myself for this statement but here goes anyway...

[dyak]

I do agree that a healthy dose of realism is often what�s needed but the gratuitous �flaming� you see on here just takes it too far. I implore my students to ask questions if they don�t understand, no matter how dumb they seem (the questions not the students); I wonder how many teachers here do the same. If you have no patience then why are you teaching?

I know the �real� world isn�t a nice place� blah blah blah� but how many people come in here looking for the same kind of drivel they see around them? Take the opening line of this thread for example:

[SweetOne]

No, the world is not a big happy place, of course. But, since most of the verbal abuse going on in these boards are personal attacks (even if 'between friends') why not take it to private message? That was my point when I began this thread. If some people feel it is well and good to be attacked, yay them, and have at it. But doing it in a forum where most of us are trying to see things relevant to our field is completely inappropriate.

Besides, belittling words and 'yelling' are not condusive to learning. If the people who are being rude think they are being effective, they are mistaken. It's just mean. Have you ever really learned something worthwhile when being yelled at? Or when someone calls you 'stupid'? If these people feel free (and WOW, encouraged it seems) to do it here, how do you think they behave toward their students? How effective are they as teachers? Not just in their classes, but in life? I don't know, I think it's rude and just because the world isn't an all around happy go-lucky place, doesn't mean this behavior should go unchecked. It doesn't help the attacker, either. What we tell them is "go ahead, you DO have something worth listening to" when in fact, the poor guy has a mangled mind. When other posters get sucked into it, it gets worse. Meanwhile, we have the newbie who THINKS he/she has come to the right place for guidance, help, and to share in kind, and instead is discouraged by the constant stream of negativity. No, that is not an accurate reflection of the real world. I do believe that is is an accurate reflection of people who are angry and powerless in their lives and who believe that the anonymity of the net gives them the right, or even the obligation, to be rotten to their fellow human beings. But, if some people really enjoy giving and recieving that kind of abuse, why not use the private messaging aspect of the board? We can then yell and be yelled at to our hearts' content.

[RachelA_Broad]

I do see your point, and I guess I see my point all the more clearly now that I have written it out and read your responses. I think I absolutely agree with SweetOne that

[dyak]

And so crucially:

[guest of Japan]

Rather than get upset by the flaming, I prefer to think of Dave's as a writing course. If you present your ideas thoughtfully and clearly you are unlikely to get flamed.

You also have to be able to accept criticism of your writing and ideas. The people who write on these boards are not payed to give advice. They are doing it as a means to relax or kill time. Of course some posters have crossed the bounds of civility, but usually those posters are removed from the board.

[Cobra]

[khmerhit]

Well then Cobra, you must have friends in high places! I flamed your post and the post was removed post haste, as it were. (Quite right, too.)

[FAQ China]

Demeaning it obviously was. Effective? In what sense? Are we now supposed to imitate you? So we can become like you? On the contrary, the people I respect and admire the most, the people I desire the most passionately to imitate, are the most mature people I�ve ever met, the most responsible, the most decent, the most altruistic. I had a company commander who tried the same routine on me. And he wasn�t the only one. The people who have quoted the most rhetoric about making a man out of me have been the sickest and most confused people I�ve ever met, and the last people I want to imitate. I know the difference between true mentoring and false mentoring because I�ve experienced and practiced both. Of the people I�ve met in the ESL industry, the person who made the strongest impression on me and the person who made the worst impression were ironically at the same school. To make the comparison even more vivid, their politics was identical. The second never stopped sitting in judgment over everyone on the planet - except himself. The first never expressed her political opinion uninvited; and when she did, it was without malice. I offered the first a blank check. I told the second to exit my life. Completely. Something I�ve done to less than half a dozen people. Give me virtue any day.

[Cobra]

[denise]

[FAQ China]

My coming out wasn�t very original. I had heard it all before. But by design, boot camp superiors have almost total control over you. I finally realized I would have to tell him what he wanted to hear. But I�m not in boot camp now. So if you persist in your role as self appointed drill sergeant of the ESL community, I�ll tell you what you need to hear. I will also continue telling the newbies not to be intimidated by you. And they�re going to believe one of us, aren�t they. I didn�t say, �Oh, you think we should all be like you.� I said, �Should we imitate you?� The answer is no. �Hey, I�m different.� That�s just more rhetoric. The issue isn�t personality, perspective, etc. The issue is behavior. �Hey, grow up.� You�re the one who needs to grow up. I�ve said it before and I�ll say it again, your behavior has no place on this board. Or any other professional setting. Any adult setting, for that matter. �Hey, I serve my purpose.� No, there�s nothing viable about your approach. But people like you do serve a purpose: you�re a neon sign that says, �Wrong way.� Whatever lessons you might or might not have learned in the army, there�s one lesson you still haven�t learned.