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Noelle
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 361
Location: USA
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 Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 4:13 am Post subject: |
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I agree with Kololam completely. "Convert" is a word that I would also avoid. I did not go to China to convert anyone. Preach does not mean convert. If anyone was influenced to embrace a faith based lifestyle after talking to me, it's not my place to take credit for it. It's between the individual and God.
As for teaching, I did sign a contract stating that I would not discuss my faith on school premises. To avoid violating this, we simply moved off the premises or saved the conversation for a more appropriate time. I am currently doing the same thing here in California with my adult students. No contract was signed prohibiting such discussions in class but I respect my students enough to not subject them all to such topics in a multi cultural classroom where they have paid for English classes and traveled across the world to study. While some may be interested, many of them (especially the Muslims) would certainly not appreciate it. There is a time and a place for everything and Christian teachers must remember this as well. |
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WordUp
Joined: 05 Jan 2006
Posts: 131
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| Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 5:07 am Post subject: |
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| BrsSmith: Looks whos opinionated now.. Maybe you can teach me how to spell hippocrit? |
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Steppenwolf
Joined: 30 Jul 2006
Posts: 1769
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| Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 6:34 am Post subject: Re: Kololam |
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| kololam77 wrote: |
So the issue re: religious freedom in China is not so clear after all. We have non Christians saying they enjoy the lack of Western-style religion in China, that the Chinese government prints bibles but restricts the imports of bibles, the Catholic Church can exist but cannot have ties to Rome, etc. \
The question seems to be is the Chinese government vehemently against religious expression as we in the west have come to understand it, or are they simply attempting to legislate a brand of religion (Christianity for example) that is distinctly Chinese - i.e. The Three Self Patriotic Movement?
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No, the Chinese government is not against Christianity as such (though you might think most of ther members of the CCP are); they are against foreign control of national spirituality; remember they do not as yet recognise the Pope because the Po9pe wouldn't recognise national sovereignty as taking precedence over the CHurch's sovereignty. To some extent, I can understand their logic.
Christians at the moment are doing just fine - witness the emergence of ever more sects and underground churches (officially illegal but widely tolerated).
On the other hand, the government is viscerally opposed to Islam even though Islam is one of the 5 recognised national religions. You can guess why.
As for Buddhism, there are not so many Chinese Buddhists (because Chinese Buddhists mix up Taoism and other cults with Buddhism); it's Tibetan Buddhism that's under state observation - again for very obvious reasons.
If you can see the sort of power the D.alai Lama, an Imam or the Pope yield over their respective flocks you can understand the animosity this creates among the ruling elite in Peking.
There is talk at the moment of allowing Judaism back into China (it's not officially recognised as a state religion yet but this may happen once significant funds have been poured into certain Shanghai districts to preserve historic buildings including the local synagogue). |
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tofuman
Joined: 02 Jul 2004
Posts: 937
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| Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 10:49 am Post subject: |
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As usual, I remind you that foreigners are often asked to teach Western culture. Western culture can not be properly understood without reference to the JudaeoChristian values that defined it.
America was settled, in part, by religious people separated from the Church of England. The Declaration of Independence has four references to the God of the Bible.
The First Amendment concerns itself with religion in America. England also has a glorious Christian history, from the Reign of Elisabeth I. One of the most fascinating and tragic historical narratives pertains to the destruction of the Spanish Armada, intent on returning Roman Catholicism to England.
For English language learners, the Bible should not be neglected. The most widely circulated book in the history of the English language, it contains the philosophical and legal foundations of most Western countries. It also is representative of the best in grammar, punctuation, and even usage because it is frequently revised and updated
True that most contracts forbid "religious activity inconsistent with the status of a foreign expert." As far as I'm concerned, that prohibits activity usually reserved for clergymen--baptism and administration of the Lord's Supper. Probably "altar call" type presentations would also be forbidden by that clause. Christianity as a dynamic force in the West can not be denied and should not be. It's the primary difference between China and the West. |
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Leon Purvis
Joined: 27 Feb 2006
Posts: 420
Location: Nowhere Near Beijing
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| Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 2:36 pm Post subject: |
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| tofuman wrote: |
As usual, I remind you that foreigners are often asked to teach Western culture. Western culture can not be properly understood without reference to the JudaeoChristian values that defined it.
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I agree.
One cannot ignore the fact that for centuries European monarchies were controlled by the Vatican and that some of the earliest settlers went to America in search of religious freedom and to escape persecution by the Anglican Church.
Puritanism had a profound effect upon the early American educational system and on the early American psyche as well. |
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InTime
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Posts: 1676
Location: CHINA-at-large
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| Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 3:29 pm Post subject: |
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RE:
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| Christianity as a dynamic force in the West can not be denied and should not be. It's the primary difference between China and the West. |
*"HolyRomanEmpire"...which was neither holy nor Roman...
*Protestant Ethic/Roman Catholicism
*Northern Europe/Southern Europe
*USAmerican Puritanism/Calvinism/Philistinism
*"...with God on our side..." has been used throughout history---and even now--to justify/obfuscate/opiate the misbelieving masses
Kololam77
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| Romans 13 reminds us that all governing authorities are under God`s dominion and that there is little (if any reason) to fight against the government for personal, religious purposes. |
Who is the "us"?
Any opinion of the (Biblically-sanctioned?) European "Divine Right of Kings"?
Was the US Revolution against King George justified?
Was US non-violent resistance movement of Reverend Martin Luther King
Biblically justified?
In history, do you see Christianisty as morphing/being corrupted the closer it came to political power, which is why Jefferson,
and the other USAmerican Founding-Father Deists/Freemasons, emphasized separation of Church and State |
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cj750
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
Posts: 3081
Location: Beijing
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 1:07 am Post subject: |
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which is why Jefferson,
and the other USAmerican Founding-Father Deists/Freemasons, emphasized separation of Church and State
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Why not use Jefferson's bible..it leaves out all the Hocus Pocus....then you could instruct without the superstitious specter that leads many educators in china away from the good book...
i once had a student who ask me about "christ, god the father and the holy spook" |
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Joe C.
Joined: 08 May 2003
Posts: 993
Location: Witness Protection Program
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 3:43 am Post subject: |
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| Noelle wrote: |
| ... but the lifestyle really does reveal a lot in a country of over 4 billion where so many have never heard the simplest message of hope. |
Christianity is a message of hope??? 
| Noelle wrote: |
Nice comeback L.P.
Forgive my mistake if you truly did "count" 1.3 billion. I was only going by what students in China told me 2 years ago. Guess they had a shrink in population since 04. |
No, the issue isn't shrinkage. The issues are math skills and common sense. With less than 7 billion people on the planet, why would you even consider that about 60% of them live in China alone? |
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tofuman
Joined: 02 Jul 2004
Posts: 937
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 5:30 am Post subject: |
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Allowing Judaism back into China would be a great tragedy for China, on par with allowing Roman Catholicism to flourish. It was a cabal of Jews and Romans who murdered Christ, the Blessed Messiah and friend of humanity. Happily, death could not contain Him.
He rose from the dead, to confound the Jews and Romans who despised Him. And he will return in majesty to deliver those who believe. |
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Ricepaddy
Joined: 14 May 2003
Posts: 219
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 5:35 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Christianity is a message of hope??? |
Yup. Mind you, you should be careful what you read into that. The Communist Manifesto is a message of hope, too. |
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Joe C.
Joined: 08 May 2003
Posts: 993
Location: Witness Protection Program
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 5:59 am Post subject: |
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| tofuman wrote: |
| He rose from the dead, to confound the Jews and Romans who despised Him. And he will return in majesty to deliver those who believe. |
Hate to be the one to break it to you, but in addition to confounding the Jews and the Romans, he has also confounded science.
When he returns to deliver, could you make mine a pepperoni pizza, please? |
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Lobster
Joined: 20 Jun 2006
Posts: 2040
Location: Somewhere under the Sea
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 9:15 am Post subject: |
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Like any misanthropic crustacean, I'm all in favour of religion, The more extreme and fundamentalist the better. It provides fertile ground where can be sown the seeds of intolerance, hypocrisy, and hatred. So nice to see the Evangelists and Roman Catholics, and the Jews and Muslims all at each others' throats. Much better than studying say, science or mathematics. Just lay on that dogmatic gobbledegook and let it rip! Let me know when it's time for a nice Inquisition or witch burning. My torch is waiting.
Don't go preaching when you should be teaching!
Nobody's really interested in your religious viewpoint, they're just being polite to their respected teacher. rant, rave, rant, foam...
RED |
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Hendahu
Joined: 27 Apr 2006
Posts: 69
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 11:29 am Post subject: |
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| One of the GREAT things about China is trhe lack of religious bigots that have prospered in America. I found it funny that Bob Jones was mentioned here, because the last city in America I lived in was Greenville, SC, home of Bob Jones University. The birthplace of ignorance and intolerance if there ever was one. So do want you want to about "spreading the belief", but please stay away from me or my school. I would have no problem reporting a teaching for conducting illegal religious services. America would be much improved if we adopted the Chinese model on dealing with religion. Just my opinion. |
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InTime
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Posts: 1676
Location: CHINA-at-large
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| Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 5:59 am Post subject: |
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BELOW is relevant to the discussion.
The Templeton Foundation is discussed/criticized/defended BELOW.
Interestingly, it has funded 2 spiritual/scientific research projects at 3 Chinese universities...in Beijing, in Shanghai and in Wuhan. The focus for one of them is the links between Chinese ancient book, the I Ching, and DNA.
My own perspective is that Quantum Physics, Consciousness Evolution and the Age of Aquarius are influentially approaching Confluence.
Nobel Prize winners are mentioned BELOW. Note that in 1992 scientists accepted the mantle of social responsibility/paradigm critique:
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World Scientists' Warning to HumanitySome 1700 of the world's leading scientists, including the majority of Nobel laureates in the sciences, issued this appeal in November 1992. The Warning was ...
deoxy.org/sciwarn.htm |
| Quote: |
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/21/science/21belief.html?em&ex=1164344400&en=72c4421f06b21e1b&ei=5087%0A
By GEORGE JOHNSON
Published: November 21, 2006
Maybe the pivotal moment came when Steven Weinberg, a Nobel laureate in physics, warned that �the world needs to wake up from its long nightmare of religious belief,� or when a Nobelist in chemistry, Sir Harold Kroto, called for the John Templeton Foundation to give its next $1.5 million prize for �progress in spiritual discoveries� to an atheist � Richard Dawkins, the Oxford evolutionary biologist whose book �The God Delusion� is a national best-seller.
Sandy Huffaker/The New York Times
�GOD DELUSION� The author Richard Dawkins, with a book, says people are brainwashed to respect religion. Or perhaps the turning point occurred at a more solemn moment, when Neil deGrasse Tyson, director of the Hayden Planetarium in New York City and an adviser to the Bush administration on space exploration, hushed the audience with heartbreaking photographs of newborns misshapen by birth defects � testimony, he suggested, that blind nature, not an intelligent overseer, is in control.
Somewhere along the way, a forum this month at the Salk Institute for Biological Studies in La Jolla, Calif., which might have been one more polite dialogue between science and religion, began to resemble the founding convention for a political party built on a single plank: in a world dangerously charged with ideology, science needs to take on an evangelical role, vying with religion as teller of the greatest story ever told.
Carolyn Porco, a senior research scientist at the Space Science Institute in Boulder, Colo., called, half in jest, for the establishment of an alternative church, with Dr. Tyson, whose powerful celebration of scientific discovery had the force and cadence of a good sermon, as its first minister.
She was not entirely kidding. �We should let the success of the religious formula guide us,� Dr. Porco said. �Let�s teach our children from a very young age about the story of the universe and its incredible richness and beauty. It is already so much more glorious and awesome � and even comforting � than anything offered by any scripture or God concept I know.�
There has been no shortage of conferences in recent years, commonly organized by the Templeton Foundation, seeking to smooth over the differences between science and religion and ending in a metaphysical draw. Sponsored instead by the Science Network, an educational organization based in California, and underwritten by a San Diego investor, Robert Zeps (who acknowledged his role as a kind of �anti-Templeton�), the La Jolla meeting, �Beyond Belief: Science, Religion, Reason and Survival,� rapidly escalated into an invigorating intellectual free-for-all. (Unedited video of the proceedings will be posted on the Web at tsntv.org.)
A presentation by Joan Roughgarden, a Stanford University biologist, on using biblical metaphor to ease her fellow Christians into accepting evolution (a mutation is �a mustard seed of DNA�) was dismissed by Dr. Dawkins as �bad poetry,� while his own take-no-prisoners approach (religious education is �brainwashing� and �child abuse�) was condemned by the anthropologist Melvin J. Konner, who said he had �not a flicker� of religious faith, as simplistic and uninformed.
After enduring two days of talks in which the Templeton Foundation came under the gun as smudging the line between science and faith, Charles L. Harper Jr., its senior vice president, lashed back, denouncing what he called �pop conflict books� like Dr. Dawkins�s �God Delusion,� as �commercialized ideological scientism� � promoting for profit the philosophy that science has a monopoly on truth.
That brought an angry rejoinder from Richard P. Sloan, a professor of behavioral medicine at Columbia University Medical Center, who said his own book, �Blind Faith: The Unholy Alliance of Religion and Medicine,� was written to counter �garbage research� financed by Templeton on, for example, the healing effects of prayer.
With atheists and agnostics outnumbering the faithful (a few believing scientists, like Francis S. Collins, author of �The Language of God: A Scientist Presents Evidence for Belief,� were invited but could not attend), one speaker after another called on their colleagues to be less timid in challenging teachings about nature based only on scripture and belief. �The core of science is not a mathematical model; it is intellectual honesty,� said Sam Harris, a doctoral student in neuroscience and the author of �The End of Faith: Religion, Terror and the Future of Reason� and �Letter to a Christian Nation.�
�Every religion is making claims about the way the world is,� he said. �These are claims about the divine origin of certain books, about the virgin birth of certain people, about the survival of the human personality after death. These claims purport to be about reality.�
By shying away from questioning people�s deeply felt beliefs, even the skeptics, Mr. Harris said, are providing safe harbor for ideas that are at best mistaken and at worst dangerous. �I don�t know how many more engineers and architects need to fly planes into our buildings before we realize that this is not merely a matter of lack of education or economic despair,� he said.
Dr. Weinberg, who famously wrote toward the end of his 1977 book on cosmology, �The First Three Minutes,� that �the more the universe seems comprehensible, the more it also seems pointless,� went a step further: �Anything that we scientists can do to weaken the hold of religion should be done and may in the end be our greatest contribution to civilization.� |
(continues...)
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kev7161
Joined: 06 Feb 2004
Posts: 5880
Location: Suzhou, China
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| Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 7:51 am Post subject: |
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I didn't know whether to post this news story link here or in the "Gay Students" thread, but this one seemed more appropriate, I think:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15835445/
I feel very lucky living in China sometimes where we DON'T have to put up with religious zealots (or whatever you want to call them) telling us how to think, act, live . . . even SHOP! |
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