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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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 Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 11:48 am Post subject: |
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| 'Clueless' is a bit harsh . I don't think those large number of Newbies are all clueless. |
I won't argue this point anymore with you except to ask, how clued in were you as a newbie? If you were highly clued in, how did you get that way, and how many other newbies do you think had the same sort of background experiences?
I was pretty clued in because I had spent 5 months living and working in Japan (another type of job), plus I'd toured half of the country by myself later, plus I'd read a lot about the culture, all before I made the move to teaching. As for most newbies here, I think that is a rarity. |
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Guy Courchesne
Joined: 10 Mar 2003
Posts: 9650
Location: Mexico City
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| Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 3:00 pm Post subject: |
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| I wouldn't argue with you on Japan, Glenski. Makes sense, particularly because of the distance. Mexico is another story however, as much of Europe might also be. I'd say the majority of people I've met who have come to Mexico as first-time teachers already have experience with the culture and the country (Cancun spring-breakers aside). That group is overwhelmingly American though. |
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sheeba
Joined: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 1123
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| Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 3:51 pm Post subject: |
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I won't argue this point anymore with you except to ask, how clued in were you as a newbie? If you were highly clued in, how did you get that way, and how many other newbies do you think had the same sort of background experiences?
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I'm just saying that I was and still am sensitive to the culture . That's all I need to be 'clued in' My point is that newbies (and those that have been here a while) often get discriminated against by the host culture without any consideration from where WE are coming from . I have been learning Chinese for a few years and even though I have cultural knowledge now hardly anybody in China will ever respect that . I hear everyday 'Waiguo' this and 'Waiguo that' - waiguo means Foreign devil btw and can and often is used in a demeaning sense . I will always be the outsider here and it is difficult to see eye to eye with a nation that sees you as a walking insensitive, clueless moron . I walk in the restaurant and look at the guy miming in front of me saying in Chinese 'foreigner does not understand , how do you say money in Engllish' to his friend before I've even opened my mouth . I don't bother so much these days even speaking in Chinese with other Chinese cos they rarely accept that any waiguo has an ounce of ability to be able to learn their superior language and adapt to their amazing culture .' The label that all newbies are walking around like lost 5 year olds has got to go and rightly should . I've met plenty who are here for the longrun who manage with the culture , the language and so on . It's really not that hard (don't look into the China boards negativity) to learn Chinese and learn about the culture but there's one big problem - people not accepting that we have the ability to adapt because we're all clueless foreigners . In my view if you have that ability you're not clueless. Like I said I've met many that aren't clueless - perhaps a bit naive but not clueless. Don't even start me talking about not being human  |
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Venti
Joined: 19 Oct 2006
Posts: 171
Location: Kanto, Japan
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| Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 4:54 pm Post subject: |
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| sheeba wrote: |
| I don't bother so much these days even speaking in Chinese with other Chinese cos they rarely accept that any waiguo has an ounce of ability to be able to learn their superior language and adapt to their amazing culture .' The label that all newbies are walking around like lost 5 year olds has got to go and rightly should . I've met plenty who are here for the longrun who manage with the culture , the language and so on . It's really not that hard (don't look into the China boards negativity) to learn Chinese and learn about the culture but there's one big problem - people not accepting that we have the ability to adapt because we're all clueless foreigners . In my view if you have that ability you're not clueless. Like I said I've met many that aren't clueless - perhaps a bit naive but not clueless. Don't even start me talking about not being human |
Isn't being aware that there is such a large group of judgemental people within Chinese society and, that as a foreigner, you will have to work extra hard not to become bitter and cynical about dealings with them, part of being "clued in"? It sounds like you made an effort to communicate with Chinese people using their language, but gave up because you became disillusioned about their attitudes. The first bolded statement above seems to show that you've developed some cynicism since first arriving in China.
It seems that someone who was truly "clued in" would have known to expect this kind of attitude from people there and would have decided before going that he/she would keep trying to get on well there despite these negative experiences. I mean, plenty of Westerners have lived and worked in China, and their experiences are widely available on the internet. Many have said just what you have said about Chinese people often being judgemental toward foreigners. And, let's face it, there are lots of people in all nations around the world that tend to discriminate against foreigners. Given that there aren't foreigners all over China, it should be expected that there's a lot of old-fashioned thinking there. I would say that one who doesn't expect such a thing before arriving will arrive as a clueless newbie.
Not picking on you, Sheeba. Just making a point. I was clueless newbie when I first arrived here in Japan and I still find it difficult to come to grips with lots of things about this place. But, the good outweighs the bad and I stay. I'm still clueless about a lot of things after more than two years of being here. |
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sheeba
Joined: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 1123
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| Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 7:17 pm Post subject: |
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| It seems that someone who was truly "clued in" would have known to expect this kind of attitude from people there and would have decided before going that he/she would keep trying to get on well there despite these negative experiences |
No. I'd say someone that was 'clued in' - not my terminology (does it exist?) can be someone that accepts the culture but does not actually like parts of it that much . That's pretty much where I stand . I accept it but I don't particularly like parts of it . I accept it because I meet that 10 percent of people(normally the older generation) that I really do like.
and I don't think it is old fashioned thinking so much . It's the young generation that annoy me the most . I can't have a normal conversation with someone under 35 here because they are so persistant that they must use English , so persistant that they can't lose face or that using Chinese with a foreigner is a lost cause when the reality is different . The amount of times I just sit there in silence with a Chinese who is lost for words before they buhaoyisi(forgive me) me and then run off.
I've been told by my Chinese friends that I'm not interested in the culture . They made that decision for me!!! . Like when I'm in the library and a Uni student approaches ' I think you need my help buying a dictionary' How many times do I hear 'I think you need my help' - i.e you're not a capable person .
These are examples of people that really believe that foreigners have no idea and no interest about a culture/language and it's always an assumption that a lot have .
I've lost what my point is and perhaps I'm rambling a bit . Sorry if that's the case but basically I didn't really know what to expect before coming here but I'm happy to accept the pifulls because of the highs. That I dislike some (note some) of the culture does not make me cynical (sorry I should have worded that bolded bit better !!)
The attitude of people here does not annoy me any more than traits of Westerners that I see in my own country (perhaps I just don't like peope much ) . I just see people as human and nature answers a lot of questions . My original point was 'to not recognise that we mostly as Newbies and teachers here have that natural ability to offend or to enlighten, to succeed or to fail , whilst keeping our human side to us is just pure ignorance' |
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Bayden
Joined: 29 Mar 2006
Posts: 988
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| Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 2:05 am Post subject: |
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| I don't bother so much these days even speaking in Chinese with other Chinese cos they rarely accept that any waiguo has an ounce of ability to be able to learn their superior language and adapt to their amazing culture |
Not to judge, but it COULD be that your Chinese isn't as good as you think it it is and people find it a strain to comprehend you.
I went through that.
It could also be you're speaking standard putonghua in a locality where they use their local dialect or a very accented Putonghua or you've picked up some accent in your Putonghua and are now using it in a district where that accent isn't used. Could be.
Also Waiguo doesn't mean 'foreign devil'. Wai guo means outside country.(literal translation)
Wai Guo Ren means outside country person. (foreigner) Waiguo ren is no more insulting than if you called a Chinese person in your country a foreigner. He would be, as you are here. It's not an insult.
Maybe you're thinking of Lau wai (old outsider, I'm not offended by it.) or'gwei lo' (white Ghost, foreign devil)
More common in Guandong.
These terms aren't particularly offensive. But if you hear 'Yang guizi' you've just been called by a derogatory, racist term.
(and they know it and mean it) |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 3:50 am Post subject: |
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| I'm just saying that I was and still am sensitive to the culture . |
You haven't answered my question on how you got to be that sensitive (or perhaps aware would be a better word?) of the culture. Makes a big difference. How you feel now doesn't (to this discussion anyway, since we are talking about newbies).
| Quote: |
| My point is that newbies (and those that have been here a while) often get discriminated against by the host culture without any consideration from where WE are coming from . |
Japan, too, but it happens to newbies and veterans alike. Until someone learns something about you, they don't know whether you're one or the other. And, Japan has a similar word to your "foreign devils", which is used often enough in very similar circumstances and probably for similar reasons. It is up to the foreigner to educate the local if he is able to communicate in the local language (well enough anyway in some cases). Otherwise, the local attitude probably has some solid basis, don't you think, in that so many foreigners have not learned how to communicate or learned some particular custom that would make it awkward for the local?
| Quote: |
| The label that all newbies are walking around like lost 5 year olds has got to go and rightly should . |
How can it, if they fit the label? Are all/most newbies able to communicate in Chinese? Do all/most of them know enough of the customs not to embarrass themselves or insult the locals? Don't know about China, but there are huge numbers of newbies in Japan that carry with them their western attitudes and don't give a hoot about Japanese ones, so that they are real cultural bulls in the china shop, and this makes the rest of us "clued-in" people look bad and continue to propogate the barrier between Japanese and the rest of us foreigners.
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| I've met plenty who are here for the longrun who manage with the culture , the language and so on . |
Again, this is non sequitur because we are talking about newbies. If the people you describe above are newbies, too, then they must have somehow acquired some knowledge of the language and/or customs in order to "manage", whether through previous experience here (thereby rendering them not newbies) or through exposure in their home countries somehow.
Last edited by Glenski on Fri Feb 09, 2007 11:22 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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sheeba
Joined: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 1123
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| Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 3:51 am Post subject: |
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yeah sorry Bayden I meant laowai .
I can't be bothered to argue anymore but I'll say one more thing about the putonghua. I was talking about Chinese assuming before I've evem opened my mouth so I don't think it has anything to do with my accent - When they start talking about you as if you can't understand or when they start miming in front of you before you've said anything - when they are first to open a conversation . Also there are many that just refuse to use Chinese with you because their simple English is the challenge of their existence. They'e not bothered if your accent is standard or not - they just want English communication . I wouldn't even say they want practice - it's just because they feel English is the right language to communicate even though we could have a better conversation in Chinese. Commun ication and actual progress in a relationship between some of my 'friends'(as communication is essential for friendship)is not really cared about . They(my friends) know my accent and can coimmunicate in Chinese but that's not right . It's a loss of face . It's not the way things should be done .
I do have a good Chinese friend (Yeah I found one !!) and he uses Chinese with me often when we go out . All the Chinese around are saying to him 'why are you using Chinese?' you should use English'
Anyway I've said plenty and have things to do today !!! And apologies if this has gone way off topic . |
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sheeba
Joined: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 1123
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| Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 6:42 am Post subject: |
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Glenski . I think we're needlessly arguing more about word terminology than anything . I'm not saying I was aware but I was and am still sensitive to the culture . I'm sure other newbies can be sensitive to situations - not just cultural ones . For example if I know nothing about somebody's plight in the second world war I can naturally be sensitive to that person even if I didn't know anything about the history of the situation.
Japan, too, but it happens to newbies and veterans alike. Until someone learns something about you, they don't know whether you're one or the other. And, Japan as a similar word to your "foreign devils", which is used often enough in very similar circumstances and probably for similar reasons. It is up to the foreigner to educate the local if he is able to communicate in the local language (well enough anyway in some cases).
As i said above we're not given the chance even if it is known we can communicate or understand the culture.
Interesting thoughts about educating .
How can it, if they fit the label? Are all/most newbies able to communicate in Chinese? Do all/most of them know enough of the customs not to embarrass themselves or insult the locals?
No they can't all communicate but why should a newbie embarrass themself , why should they insult the Chinese . Not so many do this, except the idiots - I never have .
Should I just accept that situation because I'm a foreigner and I should have realised before I came the way things are . Do people who suffer from racism just accept ignorance ? Actually many do - my black African friend included who has a hard time is extremely tolerant but China wants to become a giant in this world, promotes its harmonious society which in theory would be wonderful and at the same time practices racism and ignorance which destroy any chance of that happening . It's ignorance caused by a one track mind in my opinion that causes the communication breakdowns in general and people tell me I should just accept that because other people on the internet have had this experience.
I want to see China prosper and I think they may (at some point) but they will have to start compromising a bit more in the thought process. Ignorance rules OK does it ? Boost the economy and ignore your environment . It's the whole problem here ignorance . When will that change ? Only when people realise that life is about compronmise.
From where I stand compromising one's thoughts involves showing sensitivity . It leads to a greater understanding of relations and any newbie can show his/her sensitivity regardless of previous experience .
I really gotta get back to my studies [/quote] |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 11:27 pm Post subject: |
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| No they can't all communicate but why should a newbie embarrass themself , why should they insult the Chinese . Not so many do this, except the idiots - I never have . |
What a mockery of what you are trying to tell people!
Catch-22? If you communicate, your broken Chinese skills will embarrass you and the locals, so don't try. This silence perpetuates the notion that you don't know ANY Chinese.
If you choose not to communicate (with good, bad, or mediocre skills) just because you are fed up with things, then you also perpetuate the notion.
You are part of the problem. Educate the locals into realizing that SOME of you foreigners DO learn the language. Who cares if you make some mistakes? Isn't that what you tell your students, anyway? Make mistakes. Be brave. You can't learn at any significant rate if you just sit there in class and compose perfect replies in your head while the clock ticks on and on and on and on (and perhaps your teacher assumes you don't know the language...).
Your giving up is a major problem. |
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sheeba
Joined: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 1123
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| Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2007 3:15 am Post subject: |
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I haven't given up Glenski and I agree with you about not worrying about mistakes. I don't and never have otherwise I'd never improve in the language .
We're probably misunderstanding one another .
I'm not sure why I'm making a mockery. Like I said I've not embarrassed myself or insulted Chinese whilst learning the language . Sure I've made mistakes but I don't let them embarrass me as I know it is all part of the learning process. As you well know with your comments regardind being brave. |
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JZer
Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Posts: 3898
Location: Pittsburgh
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| Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2007 8:20 am Post subject: |
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| I can't speak for any other country except Japan. I would have to say that many, if not most, newbies are relatively clueless, certainly have no background in teaching, and are to a degree very insensitive to the local culture. I can't believe Japan is alone in that respect. |
I really don't understand the point that teachers don't know basic things about the culture.. People often teach ESL abroad to experience another culture. No matter whether they are a professional teacher or have no experience. I doubt people would be going to Japan, China, Thailand, etc to teach if they already understood the culture.
Furthermore, I have seen plenty of foreign Master's and Phd students in the US that have done things that are not very acceptable in the US. |
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JZer
Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Posts: 3898
Location: Pittsburgh
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| Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2007 8:30 am Post subject: |
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| I can't have a normal conversation with someone under 35 here because they are so persistant that they must use English , so persistant that they can't lose face or that using Chinese with a foreigner is a lost cause when the reality is different . |
sheeba, I can relate to that. I was talking to a Korean in Delhi in Korean and he said, it is so embarassing. I asked him why and he said because we are speaking Korean. I tried to ask him why it was embarassing but he did not have a good answer. It seems like native English speakers are not supposed to speak a foreign language. |
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sheeba
Joined: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 1123
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| Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2007 10:20 am Post subject: |
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| Thanks Jzer . And the relationship between the speaker suffers because of this but saving face comes before relationship . Part of the reason I don't bother with some Chinese (youth) is that I know as soon as I speak Chinese they answer me in English , and purposely avoid using Chinese . Sometimes I stand there, me speaking Chinese , them English and it really is stupid. And that has nothing to do with them understanding me . I know I can hold myself in a conversation as these guys are answering my questions well enough but in English but they're giving me very basic one word answers like 'yes' and no , no no no ' - some of these guys can't get past yes and no but will still try and communicate in English. . It totally spoils the conversation and we just can't communicate properly or get to another level . I think its the youth that do this more because of what you say jzer . The old guys are pretty cool and I can get to that level with many of them - they aren't expected to speak English and don't suffer humiliation from others if they don't use it . |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2007 12:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Part of the reason I don't bother with some Chinese (youth) is that I know as soon as I speak Chinese they answer me in English , and purposely avoid using Chinese . Sometimes I stand there, me speaking Chinese , them English and it really is stupid. |
Gee, two people holding a conversation, and each doing it in the other's language. It may seem weird, but why is it stupid? You understand each other, and the situation clearly shows that you have EACH learned enough of each other's language to hold your own.
If both of you stood there speaking Chinese, would you castigate the Chinese person for not using English?
If both of you stood there speaking English, would you feel he looks down upon you for not learning Chinese? |
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