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dmb
Joined: 12 Feb 2003
Posts: 8397
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 Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 7:59 pm Post subject: |
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Dmb's suggestion is actually quite intelligent. |
Almost as intelligent as getting a chip van? |
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rusmeister
Joined: 15 Jun 2006
Posts: 867
Location: Russia
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| Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 4:00 am Post subject: |
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| See my edited post above for clarification on 'have been to'. |
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guty
Joined: 10 Apr 2003
Posts: 365
Location: on holiday
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| Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 8:23 am Post subject: |
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According to the situation provided by tanuki, Jeff is currently in Spain. However, I believe most native speakers would use 'has he ever been to Spain before' regardless of his geographical location.
I think this is a good example of aspect defining usage, e.g. the overriding factor in the choice of grammar is what the speaker thinks.
So in this example although the person they are talking about is currently in Spain, the question is phrased based on the concept of going to a place and returning from it, it is not constructed that way because of where that person might be.
Personally, once I started to see grammar as a series of choices made by the speaker to show their beliefs/priorities/feelings rather than an externally imposed set of rules which all speakers try to conform to, I found it easier to understand and to explain. |
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tanuki
Joined: 24 Oct 2006
Posts: 47
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| Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 9:50 am Post subject: Luvit! |
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Heya guty!
GREAT additional posts!
In answer to the question in your first post, yes, I CAN see the conversation continuing that way. Fantastic addition.
You also wrote:
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| I think this is a good example of aspect defining usage, e.g. the overriding factor in the choice of grammar is what the speaker thinks. |
Absolutely.
Also, couldn't agree more that we should start looking at
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| grammar as a series of choices made by the speaker to show their beliefs/priorities/feelings rather than an externally imposed set of rules which all speakers try to conform to |
Luvit!
To quote Hannibal from the A-Team "I love it when a discussion board comes together".
(I think he might have said that in the pilot episode and some know-it-all associate producer changed it.  ) |
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rusmeister
Joined: 15 Jun 2006
Posts: 867
Location: Russia
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| Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 1:58 am Post subject: |
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| guty wrote: |
According to the situation provided by tanuki, Jeff is currently in Spain. However, I believe most native speakers would use 'has he ever been to Spain before' regardless of his geographical location.
I think this is a good example of aspect defining usage, e.g. the overriding factor in the choice of grammar is what the speaker thinks.
So in this example although the person they are talking about is currently in Spain, the question is phrased based on the concept of going to a place and returning from it, it is not constructed that way because of where that person might be.
Personally, once I started to see grammar as a series of choices made by the speaker to show their beliefs/priorities/feelings rather than an externally imposed set of rules which all speakers try to conform to, I found it easier to understand and to explain. |
This is generally true and nowhere is this more obvious than with articles. Whether I say 'a dog' or 'the dog' depends on what I think you know rather than what you actually know.
Another good one is 'go' vs 'come'. I'll say on the phone, "OK, honey, I'm coming home at 7:00", and then turn and say to my friend, "It's time for me to go home now". My perception of another's point of view. |
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