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Cleopatra
Joined: 28 Jun 2003
Posts: 3657
Location: Tuamago Archipelago
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 Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 12:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Banned for man/woman to be together unless hitched. |
Technically, this is true, but in practice the police almost never intrude into what goes on in private homes, unless they have an axe to grind and/or suspect something really untoward (by Saudi standards) is going on.
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| an unmarried couple were taken away by the religious cops just cuz they were sunning themselves by our pool. |
There are no 'religious cops' - the concept only exists in the minds of compound-bound expats and pretendy bloggers. The mutawwain, to whom the term 'religious police' is sometimes applied, have no legal authority and cannot 'take away' anyone - only a bona fide policeman can do that. Assuming your anecdote is not simply invented, the people who 'took away' these sunbathing beauties must have been policemen, in which case there's no real 'mystery' as to why they got into the compound. Besides, as I've said, the police don't usually venture inside compound walls, so I suspect that your 'friends' were either the victims of a Saudi with a grudge, or were guilty of more than simply sunbathing together. |
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The_Prodiigy
Joined: 01 Apr 2006
Posts: 252
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 3:27 pm Post subject: |
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All drivel ... Queen Cleopatra.
This particular couple were taken away and questioned at the cop shop.
This from private property - not a compound as such, but an apartment block in the scruffy district of Malaz.
Religious zealots stalk the more lavish shopping arcades and have unofficial authority to pester couples and ask to see marriage papers.
Still Fridays at Mamlaka when only females are allowed ?
Certainly original and unique, |
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007
Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 2684
Location: UK/Veteran of the Magic Kingdom
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 5:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Cleopatra wrote: |
| The mutawwain, to whom the term 'religious police' is sometimes applied, have no legal authority and cannot 'take away' anyone - only a bona fide policeman can do that. |
This is not true!
The Mutawah have the authority, more than the police, to stop anybody, and to arrest anybody if they think that he did something which is outside Saudi laws.
�mutaween have broad and arbitrary discretionary powers of surveillance, entry to property, detention and interrogation of suspects, and, in some places, summary judgment and application of punishment for perceived violations of Sharia. While nominally tasked with disciplining Muslims, mutaween are less tolerant with non-Muslims.� http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_police.
There were some news that the Saudi Government want to limit the powers of the Mutatwaas:
�The report indicated that this would remove from the hands of the religious police the authority to arbitrarily detain citizens over any acts the police deems as immoral, such as having long hair for men, improper dressing, etc. Members of the religious police, who monitor Saudis in their regular daily activities, are now to have badges that identify them� http://www.arabicnews.com/ansub/Daily/Day/060525/2006052511.html |
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Cleopatra
Joined: 28 Jun 2003
Posts: 3657
Location: Tuamago Archipelago
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 5:42 pm Post subject: |
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| not a compound as such, |
So you lied when you said it was a compound? Odd that you would find 'couples' sunbathing by a swimming pool in "an apartment block in the scruffy district of Malaz."
So it's Wikipedia now, Abba? Oh well, I guess it's probably more reliable than MEMRI, though you never know. All I know is that we were told by the security staff at my former employers that mutaween do NOT have any powers of arrest or detention, nor do they have the right to demand to see one's Iqama. Presumably this is why the mutaween normally do their rounds accompanied by a uniformed policeman. If mutaween were indeed law enforcement officers, surely this would not be neccessary? |
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007
Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 2684
Location: UK/Veteran of the Magic Kingdom
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 6:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Cleopatra wrote: |
| All I know is that we were told by the security staff at my former employers that mutaween do NOT have any powers of arrest or detention, nor do they have the right to demand to see one's Iqama. |
If you want to know the reality, go and see what is happening in the ground, not take your info from security staff at your former employer. Ask the poor Pilipino and Pakistanis, who are usually the ones who get embarrassed and stopped by the Mutaween in public places, and ask them for Igama and sometimes are beaten in front of the public!
This is the reality, not a �Hollywood Film�!
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| Presumably this is why the mutaween normally do their rounds accompanied by a uniformed policeman. If mutaween were indeed law enforcement officers, surely this would not be neccessary? |
The uniform policeman is used to enforce the laws against the Saudi citizen, because the Saudis may reply with anger towards the muttawa if there is no uniform police with him, this is their culture. |
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Cleopatra
Joined: 28 Jun 2003
Posts: 3657
Location: Tuamago Archipelago
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 6:27 pm Post subject: |
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| If you want to know the reality, go and see what is happening in the ground, |
I've described what I've seen happenign 'in the ground'. And that is that mutaween are almost always accompanied by uniformed policemen while on the beat, so to speak.
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| not take your info from security staff at your former employer. |
So what you are saying is that a banned poster on Dave's ESL cafe knows more than a person who is responsible for the security of hundreds of expat staff? Not to mention those many Saudis who have told me I can freely ignore the mutaween unless they are with a policeman.
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| the ones who get embarrassed and stopped by the Mutaween in public places, and ask them for Igama and sometimes are beaten in front of the public! |
Being 'able to embarrass' and 'stop' someone is not the same as having the legal authority to arrest them. The mutaween simply do not have that authority. And sure, they can 'ask' to see your iqama, but you are under no obligation to show it to them. Given that Asians are routinely harrassed and humiliated by 'ordinary' Saudis, the fact that the mutaween should do the same is no surprise, nor does it imply that they are law enforcement officers.
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| the Saudis may reply with anger towards the muttawa if there is no uniform police with him, this is their culture. |
Did you just pull that one out of your .....? |
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Stephen Jones
Joined: 21 Feb 2003
Posts: 4124
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| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2007 12:52 am Post subject: |
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| The mutawwain, to whom the term 'religious police' is sometimes applied, have no legal authority and cannot 'take away' anyone - |
As 007 says, doesn't stop them from regularly doing it though.
Only yesterday there was a massive kerfuffle as they tried to storm hospital housing, and beat up the security guards and traffic police.
I've even known them to arrest a Saudi because he was driving at prayer time, take him to their office, beat him up and steal his wallet.
I've been chased down the motorway in Riyadh by a Suburban full of them.
The having to be accompanied by the police was a regulation made after they roughed up the Romanian ambassador's wife in the early nineties and caused here to have a miscarriage. For a couple of years it was great because the police would just look the other way and let the muttawa have shouting matches with western women over covering their hair, but then the muttawa got wise, and started to cherry pick the police that would accompany them. |
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Van Norden
Joined: 23 Oct 2004
Posts: 409
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| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2007 11:33 am Post subject: |
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Religous Police is an apt name for the muttawas. How else would you describe their, er... 'work?'
There's little doubt that they do arrest people, either in spite of Saudi Law or with it's backing. The recent curbs have - hopefully - reduced their powers of detention. |
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Cleopatra
Joined: 28 Jun 2003
Posts: 3657
Location: Tuamago Archipelago
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| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2007 12:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Religous Police is an apt name for the muttawas. |
No it isn't. As I've said, they do not have any legal powers of arrest or detention. Their role is to enforce religous orthodoxy, as they define it, but that does not translate into being law enforcement officials.
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| The recent curbs have - hopefully - reduced their powers of detention. |
Either you have powers to detain people, or you don't - it's not something you can reduce. As I have been given to understand, the mutaween do not have this power. If they did, they would not have to be accompanied by uniformed policemen. Of course, I have never denied that they accost and even abduct (as opposed to 'arrest') people who dress or behave in a way not to their liking. And yes, of course, they are officially sanctioned in their 'work'. They are not, however, policemen, religious or otherwise. |
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dmb
Joined: 12 Feb 2003
Posts: 8397
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| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2007 12:26 pm Post subject: |
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| I am sure the situation in KSA is similar to Turkey. Something might be officially the law but it is not necessarily practiced. |
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Van Norden
Joined: 23 Oct 2004
Posts: 409
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| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2007 12:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Cleopatra wrote: |
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| Religous Police is an apt name for the muttawas. |
No it isn't. As I've said, they do not have any legal powers of arrest or detention. |
Cleo darling, just because you said it doesn't make it so!
| Cleopatra wrote: |
| Quote: |
| The recent curbs have - hopefully - reduced their powers of detention. |
Either you have powers to detain people, or you don't - it's not something you can reduce. |
Eh? Of course you can. It isn't an absolute thing - it can be modified, graded, qualified, etc. Especially here in Saudi, where the law's ill-defined and arbitrary.
| Cleopatra wrote: |
| Of course, I have never denied that they accost and even abduct (as opposed to 'arrest') people who dress or behave in a way not to their liking. And yes, of course, they are officially sanctioned in their 'work'. They are not, however, policemen, religious or otherwise. |
That's pretty much a textbook definition of 'policing.' |
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The_Prodiigy
Joined: 01 Apr 2006
Posts: 252
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| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2007 12:50 pm Post subject: |
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Cleopatra shrieked
"So you lied when you said it was a compound?"
Nup ... never mentioned compound.
Happened and I imagine things have not changed despite any protestations you may flag here, old bean. |
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Cleopatra
Joined: 28 Jun 2003
Posts: 3657
Location: Tuamago Archipelago
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| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2007 2:28 pm Post subject: |
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Cleo darling, just because you said it doesn't make it so! |
I'll overlook your attempt at patronising s**ism, and will just say that by no means should you or anyone else take my word on this matter. However, honey pie, I personally will take the word of several well-informed Saudis, as well as a specialist in 'security', over that of a few anonymous internet posters who have thus far provided no evidence for their claims that the Mutaween are official law enforcement officers.
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| It isn't an absolute thing - it can be modified, graded, qualified, etc. |
Maybe, but in order for that right to be so 'graded', it has to exist in the first place. As far as I'm aware, that right does not exist for the mutaween.
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| That's pretty much a textbook definition of 'policing.' |
Not to me, because it lacks an essential privilege - that of being allowed to arrest and detain 'offenders'.
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| . never mentioned compound. |
Unfortunately for you, you can't 'edit' people's memories. |
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007
Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 2684
Location: UK/Veteran of the Magic Kingdom
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| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2007 2:55 pm Post subject: |
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Each day I am learning new English words:
�Cleo darling�
�s**ism�
�honey pie�
Etc.
| Cleopatra wrote: |
| ... I personally will take the word of several well-informed Saudis, as well as a specialist in 'security'.. |
Specialist in �security� ????? really???
I did not know that the Saudis porters, or the Bengalis and Pakistani porters are specialist in �security�?
Have they got a BSc or MA in security studies from Harvard or, may be, from the �Bandar School of security studies� in Tambooktoo!
It seems there is improvement in Saudi Arabia, at least, in the �security� field!! Specialists!!! 
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| ... over that of a few anonymous internet posters �. |
I wonder if Cleopatra is an anonymous internet poster? Or a �real� �non-anonymous internet posters?
Because I know, for sure, the real Cleopatra of Egypt has died by snakebite (sure not by King Cobra type) a long long time ago before BC.
BTW, in this forum there is only one 'virtual' Queen, Queen of Sheba, the Queen of the English language in the Middle East.
I hope she is alive and in good health.
Last edited by 007 on Fri Mar 23, 2007 3:04 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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bje
Joined: 19 Jun 2005
Posts: 527
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| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2007 2:57 pm Post subject: |
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Cleopatra shrieked
"So you lied when you said it was a compound?"
Nup ... never mentioned compound.
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Brilliant stuff Prodigy! I love a laugh on a 'Saturday' night (especially when my girlfriend is otherwise occupied). You're hysterical over Cleo's supposed 'shrieking', and 'not a compound as such' is 'never mentioned compound'.
More surrealism please! |
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