Job Discussion Forums

[JVM]

Anda, that sounds really interesting what you are doing there. It sounds like you trying to work within the cultural norms of where they are coming from and adapt effectively to challenge your students to engage in critical thinking, as least as much as you are able. It reminds me of a model I tried to develop for Japanese learners I thought of as "structured creativity." I was trying to honor the Japanese need for structure from above, but once giving the clear criteria and examples, making it part of the very instructions to be *slightly* more creative than they were usually asked to do (only slightly because I felt they have to be weaned away from those classes where they weren't expected to produce anything substantial)

What you've written gets at the important point that any beneficial teaching practice can't be superimposed onto another context and be effective. I'd think this should be the first rule that any good reflective teacher should know, but from some of the comments in this thread, it seems otherwise! How does one take positive teaching practices and present them in a way that honors the learners so that it makes sense to them, and works within the institutional structure? Not easy for sure and in some places very challenging but impossible and not worth trying? And that comes down to individual choice.

I also appreciate the absudity of teaching ESL but not teaching methodology per se. Isn't that the same thing that happens to those hordes of Western backpackers who teach all across Asia... just because they know English they are expected to know effectively how to help others acquire the language. It's like university professors who spend their career knowing the content and only a class or two thinking about how to actually teach it. When I help train beginning teachers, we spend time (from a personal experiential as well as objective point of view) looking at the learning process-- e.g. what it means quantatively to "learn" something. The response I consistently hear is, "if I'd known this when I started school, I'd have been a lot happier." This came most recently from one teacher who'd just finished undergrad and another man who'd spent 2 years in India learning several languages there.

[Lobster]

I've been training Chinese English teachers in Shanghai for 4 years now. You can PM me if you want to engage in a discussion on this job. I'm sure shuize thinks it's an easy job that you can do without being able to teach, or even speak English, but that line of thinking was and continues to be promulgated by ignorant and uneducated bluecollars who resent and mistrust anyone with better knowledge or qualifications than they possess. Maybe it's time to ditch the "old standby" for something more creative and respectful. Sorry for the pique, but I work very hard at my job and take it too seriously to accept that tripe.

RED

[shuize]

[caius celestius]

[william wallace]

Dear JVM PM me and I'll give you what I have, but it's REAL TT, so it's all over Asia, so you'd have a lot of flying to do.
China Pete, brilliant run-down on China's development.

[Anda]

I think what Caius Celestius has written above is quite good.

But lets give the students a bit of a break. I get on pretty good with my lot so I get to see how they live etc.

My students live about 8 to a small room with double bunks and one table and no telly.

They get lots of homework so have little free time to do anything themselves.

Most have grown up on farms without TV or much reading material

Even elementary students often live in at the schools so this system often starts early on in their lives.

So should we expect our students to generate interesting material for topics?

They are just the same as us however; if you supply interesting short stories to them on a constant basis then you start to get results.

The most common advice to would be writers is to read widely novels / stories by other writers. If you get writers block then read, watch DVDs and so on to get new ideas. Here is the problem with our students!

Trying to impose Western English teaching ideas here without giving thought to local conditions is unlikely to succeed.

[JVM]

If students have never in their schooling career been asked what their authentic response is to what they have learned, or if they are conditioned to expect the teacher to provide all the answers, is that something one course can change? I'd say absolutely not! So am I stuck to teach them in the same Teacher centered manner that they're used to? Not unless I choose to. So what's in between these options? And that's where I'd say this discussion can begin. When learning happens, to me it's not a question of imposing one cultural model over another. It's a question of the teacher finding ways to bring students and content together successfully, despite any challenges that the environment poses. Does culture play into that? Absolutely. How specifically and practically? That's where the discussion begins too...

[jwbhomer]

I also thought Caius Celestius pretty much summed up the situation in a nutshell. Bear in mind too that he's talking about normal school students. I've taught normal college students and "others" and I'm almost sorry to say I found the normal students the best. So you can imagine what the "others" must be like.

OP, you seem to think that you can be an agent for change, that you can move away from the traditional Chinese exam-centered model. Take a look at a long-running thread http://forums.eslcafe.com/job/viewtopic.php?t=16848 - Promoting change in China's classrooms.
The truth is, you DON'T have much if any choice. If your students don't do well on their exams -- if your failure rate is too high -- you'll be syat upon by both your students and your bosses.

[Lobster]

If you seek to change the education system here, I feel that you should first consider several things:
1. Do you really have a deep understanding of the culture and system, its development, reason for being and impact? Many seem able to identify the symptoms but are unable to diagnose the cause. A lot of you still seem to be asking "Why?".
2. Do you have an understanding of the processes and people involved in directing and changing the system?
3. Do you have an understanding of the type of people Chinese teachers are, their daily working lives and the challenges they face?
4. Do you feel that, as a foreigner, it is your place to try to move another country's education system toward that of the west in terms of teaching philosophy and methodology unless you are explicitly invited to do so?

It creeps me out that people come here and begin to criticize the place and agitate for change when there are similar, if not more serious, shortcomings in the west. On any given issue, be it human rights, the environment, education or even food safety, there are problems at home that urgently require the attention of those ex-pats who instead choose to live among the locals and snipe from the bushes. Look, there are lots of inner-city American and UK schools in dire need of teachers. Just take your on-line TEFL certificate, apply, and work in a system that meets with your approval.

This is just my personal view. After doing this job for years, I am just beginning to understand the immense challenges that education reform presents. But then again, I train teachers because I can't teach English, and I can't teach English because I can't speak English. Therefore....smurg bel dra losta smik ballion hu!

OP, thanks for the PM. I look forward to chatting by e-mail next month after the teachers finish their current summer training session. They just love spending their summer holidays in my classroom learning about interactive student-centred methodologies.

RED

[SnoopBot]

JVM, your ideas are noble and similar to mine when I completed my MA Ed in TESOL years back. Nevertheless... China is China and TESOL is moneymaking scheme (Privates) or a necessary evil (Universities) and often nothing more.

You can take 95% of the TESOL graduate level based course knowledge you have learned and toss it out.

The Teachers:
You are hired to give some credibility to a program and possibly given respect if working for a better institution. It is a hit a miss situation if some institution can get a real qualified teacher for 4000 RMB the better. At the best, you get the extra work because usually having a MA Ed TESOL, which usually means you are serious about teaching. Expect to be used at the fullest extent without the additional pay of course.
Being a qualified teacher doesn't matter, and if you're not qualified strings can be pulled to get you "qualified." Some places prefer the unqualified as they do not know any better when it comes to bad management to voice complaints.

This is just the way it is, for teaching training programs 90% of what teachers learn in these programs is not used here in China. Most positions are Oral English based or set up with a Chinese only style (My way or the HighWay) method that often conflicts with the "latest and greatest TESOL method."

If you are thinking about coming here to setup a teaching program, here are some notes:

Not being Chinese and trying to set up a teaching training system without a Chinese backer = failure. It is not like in the USA when you can open a business i.e. Chinese restaurant and shut out any local people. Someone Chinese must get rich before you period! That is the sad fact.

In addition, I do not think the current teachers here will pay for any additional teaching training.

The bottom line = If my MA Ed\MBA is only going to get me an extra 500 RMB a month above those without a degree or experience what benefit will some 50,000 RMB teacher training program give me? Well, Nothing on the monetary level and if best possibly something on the professional level that will not be utilized, appreciated or valued while teaching in China. Many of us here already know these facts.

The only way to approach some teacher-training program is to turn it into a business fraud to sucker non-native speakers into thinking they might be hired/qualified once completed. Another swindle would be to defraud the degreeless, party crowds with some teaching-to-party-Olympic angle that promises a job after their completion of the program. Another, promise high-paying jobs that don't exist.

These examples above are a typical analysis of most of the current Chinese based Foreign Teacher Training programs I have seen.

I feel existing teachers would not pay for some type of "Teaching Program" without some noted benefits.

The only worse prospect of teaching in China with an MA Ed TESOL would be teaching in China with a Doctorate in TESOL for 5 more years of tuition expenses and for an extra 500 RMB a month. That says it all in a nutshell.

Sorry to be blunt about these facts, but I do not see any prospect for a foreign operated Teacher Training Program here in China at the present time.

You are better off looking at Chinese Language programs for teaching Chinese to foreigners. However, again you must find a Chinese partner or fail. You also have a chance to be cheated out of your investment by your Chinese partner as many have already experienced.


Another idea would be to set up a true English based Immersion camp located in a scenic area of the USA and cater to Rich kids to spend a summer in the USA (Camping, fishing, Horseback riding) while learning English. This would be a good idea if you had the facilities to do it.

I do not see a large market for a foreign teacher training program in China.