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Henry_Cowell
Joined: 27 May 2005
Posts: 3352
Location: Berkeley
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 Posted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 2:08 pm Post subject: |
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| I don't read self-serving propaganda. Please tell me precisely who or what has indoctrinated me. |
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rusmeister
Joined: 15 Jun 2006
Posts: 867
Location: Russia
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| Posted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 5:28 pm Post subject: |
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Henry, I try not to be rude to you; you are certainly rude to me. Why don't you do me the courtesy of ignoring my posts if you disagree with them so strongly?
I apologize if I have offended you - it certainly wasn't my intent. |
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Henry_Cowell
Joined: 27 May 2005
Posts: 3352
Location: Berkeley
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| Posted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 6:04 pm Post subject: |
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| rusmeister, I simply quoted your own words. And then you said that I've been "indoctrinated." What's rude about asking you how precisely I have been "indoctrinated"? I'd like to know. |
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rusmeister
Joined: 15 Jun 2006
Posts: 867
Location: Russia
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| Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 1:29 am Post subject: |
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| Henry_Cowell wrote: |
| rusmeister, I simply quoted your own words. And then you said that I've been "indoctrinated." What's rude about asking you how precisely I have been "indoctrinated"? I'd like to know. |
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| I don't read self-serving propaganda. |
I didn't say asking me was rude, but I would say that qualifies. Again, I apologize if at any time I have seemed rude to you.
If you're not going to read it there, I see no reason for me to re-post it or for you to read it here. |
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Henry_Cowell
Joined: 27 May 2005
Posts: 3352
Location: Berkeley
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| Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 5:30 pm Post subject: |
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So you admit that you can't show that I've been "indoctrinated." That's reassuring.  |
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rusmeister
Joined: 15 Jun 2006
Posts: 867
Location: Russia
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| Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 9:26 pm Post subject: |
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You can't argue with logic like that...
I apologize for this thread derailment. |
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Vanica
Joined: 31 Aug 2006
Posts: 368
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 1:16 am Post subject: |
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| Jonathan Kozol has a new article about NCLB and public school education in the US at Znet. |
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rusmeister
Joined: 15 Jun 2006
Posts: 867
Location: Russia
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| Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 4:05 am Post subject: |
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| Vanica wrote: |
| Jonathan Kozol has a new article about NCLB and public school education in the US at Znet. |
I assume you mean this? (You made me search!)
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=9542
Unfortunately, it looks like Mr. Kozol is attacking a couple of the symptoms (segregation and funding) that are not really root causes. Investigating the history of public schools and who formed them under what guiding philosophy and purpose will bring you a lot closer.
Talking about or even applying equality won't help. Soviet citizens also got equality in most areas of their lives - of an amazingly low level. In addition, if a system actually does harm, then funding it can only help cause more harm.
It is necessary to examine what you are offering in the first place. This is what Gatto did. Even Stormer investigated primarily the results and only scratched the surface on the causes and origins of this disease. I don't know if Kozol goes into that, but this book of his seems aimed at the symptoms. Everybody knows the symptoms. Unless you're a doctor with really good training and experience, however, knowing symptoms doesn't help much with the diagnosis. It's like seeing a rash and prescribing a cream, or a chronic headache and prescribing aspirin. Unless you're really really lucky, it won't touch the root cause. You need to do a CAT scan (or whatever) or X-rays, and even then need some learning and experience to be able to understand what you are seeing (as a doctor, not as a patient). |
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Henry_Cowell
Joined: 27 May 2005
Posts: 3352
Location: Berkeley
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| Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 2:24 pm Post subject: |
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Anyone who has studied the field of education in the U.S. knows Jonathan Kozol's voluminous body of work. In almost all of his published books over the past 40 years, Kozol has offered many, many solutions to the problems in American schools. You can look them up.  |
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rusmeister
Joined: 15 Jun 2006
Posts: 867
Location: Russia
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| Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 4:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Henry_Cowell wrote: |
| Anyone who has studied the field of education in the U.S. knows Jonathan Kozol's voluminous body of work. In almost all of his published books over the past 40 years, Kozol has offered many, many solutions to the problems in American schools. You can look them up. |
Thank you.
(I'll withhold commenting on "who has read what".)
To expand on what I pointed out, a great many intelligent people have offered solutions, but all of those solutions are useless if the diagnosis is wrong. I could cite Ivan Ilyich or Jacques Barzun or whoever, but as long as you don't know the real causes and how they came about, the solutions will never have effect. From the text offered, it appears that the issues of poverty and race are what Kozol perceives as root causes of the problems. Kozol has no more of a halo than Gatto does, and Gatto accurately describes the causes that affect whites as well as blacks, well-off as well as poor. |
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Henry_Cowell
Joined: 27 May 2005
Posts: 3352
Location: Berkeley
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| Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2007 4:43 pm Post subject: |
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Ilyich [sic] and Barzun are not living and working today in the trenches of American education. Kozol is -- and has for the past several decades. I'm sure he's quite aware of all the "history" you know about the subject.
I think that, if you really knew your educational history as you claim you do, you wouldn't have gotten Illich's name wrong. |
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rusmeister
Joined: 15 Jun 2006
Posts: 867
Location: Russia
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| Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2007 6:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Henry_Cowell wrote: |
Ilyich [sic] and Barzun are not living and working today in the trenches of American education. Kozol is -- and has for the past several decades. I'm sure he's quite aware of all the "history" you know about the subject.
I think that, if you really knew your educational history as you claim you do, you wouldn't have gotten Illich's name wrong. |
Actually, Henry, you can hardly refute my claims because you clearly did not read beyond the first few lines of what I linked to. You saw the word "Christian" and went into 'unreasonable mode'. (Never mind that most of what I say would still be of interest regardless of personal beliefs - people ought to at least know what's being done to them without their knowledge.)
A lot of what you say seems to suppose that only living people have any claim on intelligence - certainly you seem to believe that people are 'more' intelligent today, rather than merely having more information at their disposal.
A primary difference between you and me is that I have taken a clear stand on what I believe. Whenever your position is questioned you shift to another position. Debate in those circumstances is pointless, and not really what I want to do, anyway.
The OP asked for advice from people who have made the transition he is planning. I have offered it. If you don't like it - oh, well. |
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