Job Discussion Forums

[go2guy]

I've said it before on this site, but one of the best "ins" for younger individuals wanting to explore the French workplace is the WORKING HOLIDAY VISA. I don't know if it exists between the US and France but I do know it does between Canada, and I believe Australia, and France. It entitles the holder to work for a period of one year (at unlimited hours) in the country of exchange. The application procedure does take place in your home country, but it's fairly straightforward. I've known people who have effectively used this visa to penetrate the market, find a good job and then begin the paperwork (with the help of an employer) for a permanent work visa early enough before the end of the working holiday visa. True, though, only employers who see serious, long-term oriented candidates would bother going to the effort of securing the permanent visa. Hope this helps (someone who does do their research)!

[forest1979]

"I've said it before on this site, but one of the best "ins" for younger individuals wanting to explore the French workplace is the WORKING HOLIDAY VISA." Ok, far point.

"I don't know if it exists between the US and France..." It doesn't to be blunt.

Only a handful of countries have a working holiday visa arrangement, these being Australia, Canada, Japan, NZ, UK and Ireland, S Korea. French citizens can partake in this programme by getting a one year visa for somewhere like Australia, where you can work only 90 days at any one place, the emphasis there being on HOLIDAY rather than WORK visa, and in return Aussies can get working holiday visas for France. As for the US and this scheme I don't think Americans are even entitled to working holiday visas for Australia, Japan, Ireland and S Korea, so for France I wouldn't think it's highly likely. Besides if you're geographically aware the european places that offer working holiday visas outright are island nations and not part of the european mainland, and other places that have holiday visa arrangements only do so with a handful of overseas nations, of which the US is not part of the general scheme. As for Canadians, well Frenchies can get a working holiday visa there so I presume that there's a reciprocal visa situation with France. So, cutting the long story short, it's still freedom fries and not french fries for US citizens.

[rfx24]

I came to France hoping that I would get a job and get sponsorship with the visa/work permit like in the Czech Rep. In the back of my head I kind of knew that things would not really work out, but I went to France anyway. I did a lot of research but there was so much information and all was different I didn't know what to believe. If they gave me a job under the table I probably would take it. France is lovely and I would still want to live there, even if the labor market is hard to crack.

I also applied to many schools in Spain while I was in France and one answered me asking how I managed to work in the CZ. I told them I got legalized and they never answered back. I've sent my CV to Italy too and no replies. No American TEFLers can teach in the EU! (except for the newer EU members)

PS I'm back in the CZ to a job that I enjoy...

PSS I am really lazy about buying umbrellas. I never had one while living in the CZ either.

[forest1979]

I'll repeat what I have said before. Non-EU people can get on the TEFL wagon in Europe but the ones who do are not transients out in Europe for a lark about or a 1-2 year stay. The people who come from outside the EU to work in Europe are serious about TEFL as a career and serious about working in one place for a long time. Therefore they can persuade employers to go through the red tape to get them a work and residency permit as the investment in time dealing with bureaucracy will be paid back with years of service, dedication and loyalty. There is no way someone on a tourist visa can really provide such a solid or for that matter similar argument.

[go2guy]

Working holiday visas CAN be used in continental France by Canadians and Aussies at least - wasn't sure about the Amerks but I take forest's word for it. As I said, I know this to be true because I know real people who have done. Pay attention kids!

[rfx24]

There is no working holiday visa for Americans for France. There is a visa of long stay of more than 90 days, but you are NOT entitled to work. I was reading the US Embassy in France notes on Americans wanting to work in France. First, there has a to be a labor contract presented and approved by the French Ministry of Labor. I think that French employers are hesitant to do this because it will be costly for them to hire me, more taxes to pay I believe. I don't know the exact rules on this. Maybe someone might know in these forums. Language schools would certainly not offer a working contract to a non EU! The student visa really is the best option, even if its a joke if you want to TEFL in France.

British TEFLers also come and go its not just Americans. Lets not be too quick to stereotype and generalize here. Its easy for UK/Ireland citizens to get a job (even with someone who has the same qualifications as me), but hard for non EUs.

[spiral78]

Sigh. Please stop making generalizations about the possibilities of persuading some employer to jump through the legal hoops for you. It MIGHT work in France (though I seriously doubt it.

But it DOES NOT WORK IN ALL EU MEMBER COUNTRIES.

I was in the Netherlands as the US spouse of a Czech citizen before the Czech Rep entered the EU. I could legally live there, but not work. The local university was willing to go to Den Hague to file for an exemption on my behalf, after gathering 18 months work of back up paperwork including petitions from students asking for a North American to be on staff and the results of an unsuccessful search for an EU member citizen qualified for the position (required some background in TBL).
Den Hague told the DOS one day before scheduled court date not to bother to travel there - no exeptions are granted for English teachers.

The problem is that when you make statements like 'it's possible if you're really serious about it' newbies often think it's just a matter of hard work and somehow they'll make it. That's simply NOT TRUE.

I don't mean to discourage anyone from trying, but it is VITAL to have REALISTIC EXPECTATIONS when you are contemplating a move abroad. Things have worked out all right for rfx because he/she had realistic expectations and obviously enough backup to try and then be able to move on when it didn't work.

[medusa]

Well it seems like rfx made the right choice, umbrella or not! I hope you enjoy it back in the C Republic.
Going to work in France, Spain or Italy for a couple of years can be quite a romantic notion and silly films like "Under the Tuscan Sun" with a woman who just suddenly decides to buy a house and live permanantly in Italy does so without the slightest hitch. Kind of makes the European village cottage surounded by beautiful scenery seem realistic and EASY. Shame. (sorry about the bad reference but i caught the film on tv it wound me up!).

Back to the point: the only realistic way I see for US citizens is either coming over on a 'lectrice' position by an exchange, the 'assistantship' position, and if for whatever reason you are not eligible, you really should take the student visa.
University degrees can be very CHEAP in France. You then have the right to work alos, so you are employable. It is the soundest option.

Case study: my US friend came over as an assistant to work in France. She renewed her contract for three years (all above board). Then she enrolled at Uni and is taking a Masters in English (again VERY cheap). SHe only has 6 hrs a week of classes so she works for a language school as a TEFLer. This year, due to her contacts at the Uni, she has secured a place as a lectrice, language assistant. Only 12 hrs work per week at Uni so it fits in well with her classes. It's well paid for France and she can still fit in hours at the language centre.
She has however applied for French nationality. Her grandmother is French. she has all of the right paperwork and lawers say it is only a question of time. She has been waiting for nearly three years....

As for Brits and Irish coming to France for short periods, very true. It's so easy that you can just pop over, and if you've got a minimum of get up and go and luck you can find part time short contracts. Not always easy, given the job market but it happens.

I think previous posts state well, DO your research guys!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

France is great, I love it, it has now become my home (even though I am currently in India). But France isn't for everyone.

[spiral78]

Thanks for the additional confirmation, medusa. I also wanted to say that the advertising put out there by some training centres is misleading. There's a great example on the 'Greece' forum just now, all but saying openly that North Americans with their cert and just a little experience can get work permits for Greece - it just isn't true.

[forest1979]

rfx24 - maybe the problem you encounter at interviews is not so much to do with EU regulations. You're never going to be "highered" by a language school unless you can impress with a better linguistic knowledge, and trust me the French are nit picky over grammar rules and the like.

[spiral78]

forest, stop picking on rfx. He didn't fail to get hired because he's unprofessional or linguistically challenged (I admit his post isn't grammatically perfect, BUT!)

I have researched work possibilities at a French institution myself. I have an MA TESL/TEFL from a reputable British university and ten years of experience teaching, 7 of them at uni level. I'm even married to a citizen of a 'new' EU member country. I can't get legal working papers for France, as a US citizen. Unless things have changed seriously in the past two years - I conducted this research over a back in 2005.

It's not how hard you try, or how long you're willing to commit (heaven knows, the newbies who read your posts will be writing in to say 'hey, I'll sign a five-year contract, who do I talk to?!). It's not your qualifications or your linguistic prowess. Outside of study programs, it's your passport.

As you are apparently British and are not now in France, by your profile, I am curious about the source of your firm knowledge of how North Americans can, in fact, secure legal working permission for France. Do you have some friends who heard about somebody who... or what?

[Luder]

Spiral wrote:

[forest1979]

The company I worked was a large in scale and employed Canadians, South Africans and Americans. As I have already stated before, these people got jobs because they were serious about teaching English as a career. They were able to sign lengthy contracts and also state their intentions of staying in Paris for the long-term. Most were hired overseas, sent in CVS to the adverts seen overseas and had telephone interviews, but given the size of the non-EU community in the company and their networking some people (but not too many) were intermittently hired from within France when staff was immediately needed if they had great credentials and a crisis in supplying teachers for classes was looming.

The demography of the non-EUs was broad, ranging from young people in their late 20s/early 30s to people in their 50s. Many had kids. Many of the non-EUs held positions of pedagogical responsibility and were very highly thought of. If anything the non-EUs were the power brokers and the EUs the people in the classrooms teaching. That is not to say that all non-EUs did not teach as some were exclusively teachers. However, one small note. On reflection the non-EUs that were hired were highly proficient with the French language and basically had levels far higher then the EUs (just to generalise). I don't know if they had formal qualifications in French but they certainly were of a level to pass exams if necessary.

As to how these people from outside the EU were hired I can't answer as I was not privy to the recruitment process or the paperwork that had to be undertaken. But I can emphasise once more that the people hired saw TEFL as a lifelong career, held MAs - however most people thesedays do so that's not a huge deal, were very dedicated people, and had superb working knowledge of the French language. In comparison most teachers from Britain probably did get their teaching posts due to holding the correct passport and far fewer saw TEFL as a job for life type of thing. Similarly most non-EUs I met in Paris wanting to find work in France teaching English had a similar attitude, experience, French language level and age to the Brits. However, as noted, they cant find work due to not having the right passport. Bottom line given my experienes, if you want to work in France in TEFL don't come to France, apply from outside the EU and get the paperwork sorting out that way. As soon as you arrive in France regardless of intentions you have 99.9% killed any possibility of work unless you have awesome credentials.

I won't deny the pasport issue is a major element in the equation but it's not 100% of the whole picture. I can only go on what I saw and found in Paris and many of my colleagues were non-EU. Sprial, can I therefore ask if you fulfil the rather limited criteria I placed within this post? Are you outside the EU now? Are you fluent in French?

Final point, when I meant people were long-termers i wasn't on about being given 5 year contracts. It was about people being able to show that they were worth a punt with regards to staying for a long time, undergoing training and therefore attaining those pedagogical management positions that the fleeting British had no interest in.

[Luder]

[spiral78]

But I can emphasise once more that the people hired saw TEFL as a lifelong career, held MAs - however most people thesedays do so that's not a huge deal,

forest, most readers on this forum are not MA holders, they're newbies. I gear my 'general' advice to them - that includes the OP on this thread.

Whether or not I fulfill the criteria you've listed is outside the point in terms of providing general information to newbies on the forum.

In fact, I do fulfill all of them except the French fluency. As I wrote above, I've got 10+ years, 6 in universities, and an MA in TESL/TEFL from the University of Birmingham, England, which is pretty reputable in the field.

Yes, I am in the EU. I am from the US but have worked legally in Netherlands and Luxembourg thanks to my spouse's international corporation, which pulls strings for spouses of its staff. I know some stuff about different countries within the EU because we have to contemplate relocation every few years. France was on our horizon back a couple of years ago, as I wrote, and so I did some official checking up then.

As a dual citizen of the US and the Czech Rep, I have a legal right on my own to work in (I think) 10 EU member countries at the moment. However, I am not seeking work in any country this year because I've got curriculum development contracts that will keep my nose to the grindstone for the next six months at least.

Not sure why my personal qualifications and situation are relevant here, but since you asked./