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Hess - in Taiwan - opinons ?
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brian

Joined: 15 May 2003
Posts: 299

Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2003 7:13 am Post subject:

Thanks for the clarification, Okami. Jason, Okami has only been here half as long as I have, but I am more than willing to conceed that he has twice the knowledge that I do about a much broader range of topics. So the answer is No, the length of time that you are here doesnt necessarily mean that one knows everything - but certainly helps to know a bit more than the average Joe. Hopefully this will put an end to this thread and will ensure that we are all more careful about what we post in the future, myself included.

jason_seeburn

Joined: 26 Apr 2003
Posts: 399
Location: Toronto

Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2003 1:03 pm Post subject:

js Last edited by jason_seeburn on Fri Apr 16, 2004 8:18 pm; edited 1 time in total

Okami

Joined: 25 Jan 2003
Posts: 121
Location: Sunny Sanxia

Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2003 3:50 pm Post subject:

Why you insist like arguing like a fool I'll never know. The gloves need to come off.

Quote:

He sounds like he got screwed with a zoning restriction. A little bribe to the right person would have fixed that. As I was saying....

Weren't your previous postings about how honest the Taiwanese are? You just now said that he should of given a bribe. Don't you think his f$#%ing Taiwanese attorney would of told him that instead of having to shell $100,000NT out of his own pocket(yes, the attorney's pocket)? Maoman is not an idiot. He knows his business and has far better guanxi than I ever will.

[I wrote]They have allowed foreign teachers to work in a kindergarten if there ARC provider approves it and then they/you register it with the authorities.[/quote]

Quote:

Actually they have changed that. There was an article on tealit.com about it (but I have lost the web site). It used to be that foreigners could only work in cram schools, and only if they had BA degrees. Now I believe they are starting to let them work in kindergartens.

I just said they could in the original quote. You believe? Listen, we don't want to hear what you believe in Toronto about Taiwan. We want serious facts and procedures that work here. If tealit did have the webpage still, I would of provided the link. If you want to legally work for a kindergarten it has to be ok'd by your boss providing the ARC and the authorities. Read it slowly and a couple times and it should slowly sink in. Rolling Eyes

Quote:

Because a lot of the schools are kindys and they couldn't have foreigners at them.

Duh, only buxibans, universities and anchingbans can legally employ a foreign teacher. Last I checked there were just as many of them as kindergartens. Kindergartens are only 3-4 years of education where cram school can be 12+ years.

Quote:

So they just rent them from other schools. The cram schools can have foreigners if they want. The qualification is for the foreigner, not the school. The foreigner has to have a BA from a university in a recognized country and passport from same country.

Renting your foreign teacher and not having it endorsed on your ARC is illegal, not that they really enforce. The BA and the degree can be from different countries as long as they are both approved English speaking countries. So you can have a passport from Canada and a degree from the US and still get all your legal working papers. A little bit of knowledge and a lot of ignorance is a dangerous thing. Jason!!! Please step slowly away from the computer!!!

Quote:

The school doesn't really need anything except to be registered and to meet the complementary education law requirements. This isn't hard to do. Registration is for a fee. Complementary education law requirements are just guidelines, not licenses and no one ever checks.

A lot of cram schools will happily employ you and pay you tax free. They can not and will not get you an ARC. They will tell you this very directly at some of them. These are not only small independents but also franchises of larger schools. In the face of this, if they can provide an ARC, why don't they?

Quote:

Actually, Taiwan is currently rated eighth in the world for countries where it is the easiest to start a business. You make it sound much more complicated than it is.

Jason, please read Hernando de Soto's "Mystery of Capital." In there will be a clue, please pick it up and go to the next step.

I talked to an acct that specializes in starting businesses for foreigners. As a branch office of an off shore company it takes 2 months, $50,000NT and $2,000US. For a Taiwan based company it takes 6 months and $50,000NT. I know people who do business in Taiwan. I know people who work for small businesses in Taiwan and I have done so in the past. It's not that it is so easy to start a corporation in Taiwan, it's just that much harder to do it everywhere else. This is something you will learn if you read Mr. Soto's book. You can easily set up a stall in the night market, but you still need guanxi and something to sell. If you want a legitimate business in Taiwan, it has to be incorporated. Unless you can sight something different, than I got the experience and know how on this one.

Quote:

This is just not true. First off, none of the smaller buxibans are corporations, but all can offer ARC's.

Yes, they are. Every legal business in Taiwan has to have their papers on the wall. You can read(Chinese though the newer ones are in English too) it and know the company's name and the person in charge.

Quote:

Secondly, Taiwan has a civil code so business law there is much simpler than in NA.

Uh, WTF

If Taiwan is rated 8th for easiest palce to run a business and The US is 2nd or 3rd, than how can it be simpler than the US? Please don't drink and type at the same time Shocked

Quote:

I don't know what you mean by a "legal corporate entity" but there are some web sites you could visit for incorporating a business in Taiwan so you might understand how it is done.

What are the addresses of these websites? Who owns them?

Quote:

It is not the same as the N American corporate entity.

I don't know what you learned about business law in college, but limited liability is limited liability.

Quote:

By size requirements do you mean the size of the classrooms? The amount of students? The school I worked at was actually not an English school completely, as it taught English in only one room (my room). The other classes were other cram subjects. So you could say it was a pretty small English school. But we had no trouble getting me an ARC.

I must(groan) be strong, fight the(grunt) ignorance before it spreads. Twisted Evil

They take into account all the classrooms, the total ping(Chinese unit of measurement, like square feet/meters) of the business. So even though you only taught English in one room(yours no less), they gave the permit to employ you legally on the total size and revenue of the business.

First off, Chinese teachers are much more respected than their foreign peers. Kindergarten or cram school Chinese teachers call or talk to the parents 1-5 times a week. Parents rarely if ever interact with the foreign teacher. Parents and grandparents in Taiwan can be very mercurial about the school that their child attends. They will switch them for the smallest reason in some instances, like one school that offers to tell the parents about their child's daily bowel movements(God, I wish I was making that up. It actually helped them attract a few more students).

Here are some things that Jason has advocated or not countered:

1. Mr Seeburn thinks its ok to still stay at a school that will blatantly try the change the contract, but will change it back if you threaten to quit. Now I ask the reader is this logical? You are going to be stuck with those people for one year if you sign that contract and it starts like that, you should you then still stay?

2. Agents will get money out of you one way or another. It's there business to do so. An agent will normally try to get you committed to 25-30 hours a week for $50,000-$55,000 irregardless of your skill or experience. 3 guesses where the rest of the money went, first 2 guesses don't count.

3. Small schools get it wrong due to lack of specialization or plain ignorance of what to do. Large schools rarely have the same issues. Hess will actually get your working papers started in your country. Some people are willing to work for less for that peace of mind.

4. Failure to adequately represent problems that often occur with taxes. Tax evasion is an ancient Chinese tradition, going back farther than the founding of the oldest constitutional democracy. If you do anything with a small school make sure they are paying your taxes correctly or you are in full knowledge of how they are helping you cheat the gov't out of your share of taxes. I had to talk a guy down(he wanted to quit a sweet sounding job) last year because his boss wasn't withholding any taxes for him. I had to tell them that this is normal and that the boss is doing it for his benefit. Some schools will underreport your income to give you a break on taxes, just be sure that you know what is going on and why. Don't look stupid at the tax office, that can lead to possible difficulties.

5. Thankfully the police background check has been adequately explained and Jason can lay off of saying it is required for legal working papers.

6. He laid off of the rezoning thing after I pointed out about the business license is not a rezoning permit. Rolling Eyes

7. Gave up the cheesy 7-11 rhetoric and how 7-11 has more stringent requirements than a cram school. Rolling Eyes

You'll never see inspectors at a 7-11, you will see inspectors or taking a long field trip to avoid them if you work for a school. Fellow cram school owners narc each other out all the time.

Dealing with the trash,
Okami

jason_seeburn

Joined: 26 Apr 2003
Posts: 399
Location: Toronto

Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2003 10:16 pm Post subject:

js Last edited by jason_seeburn on Fri Apr 16, 2004 8:19 pm; edited 1 time in total

brian

Joined: 15 May 2003
Posts: 299

Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2003 4:02 am Post subject:

jason_seeburn wrote:

I remember now why I never hung out with the foreigners when I was in Asia.

Actually, judging by the general feeling towards you on both this forum and the General Africa Forum here on Dave's, I would have to say that it was more likely that the foreigners chose not to hang out with YOU! You are not very well respected here Jason, and I would have to say that the reason for this is that you try to argue about what you obviously know nothing about.

From what I can gather from your posts, you are 30 years old, claim to have two degrees and are currently studying back in Canada to become a lawyer. You have worked in Taiwan for a single school for nine months, and now claim to be an expert on the subject of everything Taiwan. I dont think that anyone is begrudging you your own personal experiences in that little school in the back of Taichung, Fengyuan or wherever it was. The problem is that you cant necessarily extrapolate these isolated experiences as being representative of what happens in Taiwan. Surely, as a soon to be legal professional, even you can understand this. That's all - nothing personal!

This is getting really boring...let's move on to the next topic of discussion, what do you say?

dusty100

Joined: 06 Oct 2003
Posts: 6

Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2003 9:11 am Post subject:

Thanks for all the input / advice. Always useful to get a few differing views.

Okami

Joined: 25 Jan 2003
Posts: 121
Location: Sunny Sanxia

Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2003 2:15 pm Post subject:

Jason, please go home. your village is missing its idiot.

I love how Jaosn will spew off nonsense, not admit to it, and then play like he's a wronged victim. Persecuted he is, just look at what I'm going to do to him.

I have no problem with people posting things or asking questions, but I want it to be info that everyone can use and is factual. I've been doing this for close to 3 years. So here goes yet another dig at Jason.

We have some points about how I'm beholden to my Taiwanese boss and in fear of him.

Quote:

You brought up the topic of bribes. I was just agreeing with your way of doing things. Of course I would never give a bribe. I would find a place that was zoned commercial, and build my school there. Regarding Maoman and his adventures: Do you know why they wouldn't let him build his school? Because you know you are supposed to know the end to a story before you tell it. If your Maoman story is to have any balls, it needs to have a point. Not just: oh, they wouldn't let him open his school, no one knows why...let's all get some kleenex and hold each other.

About Maoman, you can read his little misadventure here:
http://forumosa.com/3/viewtopic.php?t=8971&start=45

It was an architect not a lawyer, my mistake. I didn't bring up bribes in this situation, but about how you erroniously said that they rezone areas for you.

Quote:

OK genius. I guess they don't have it anymore. But in never never land, where I obviously come from, I was able to get it. Here it is: http://www.tealit.com/news.htm

You just copied and pasted all that just to prove what I was saying. I can only say thank you as my original assertion still stands:

Quote:

Quote:
They have allowed foreign teachers to work in a kindergarten if there ARC provider approves it and then they/you register it with the authorities.

A school must guarantee a foreign teacher 15 hours a week inorder to provide him an ARC. Anything less and they would wonder what foreigners were doing in Taiwan. A school that can not offer an ARC will let you know. If you go to Tealit and call some of the schools. They can't give you legal working papers and will tell you so directly. I'm not going to make phone calls and list names to prove Mr. Seeburn wrong. That's just a little too over the top for me and more respect than he deserves.

Businesses that are formed in taiwan are limited liability and require a certain number of owners/partners. The number of owners/partners needed was recently dropped within the last 2 years. If that doesan't seem like a corporation than I don't know what is. I find using gov't websites as proof to be something akin to duplicity, especially considering Taiwan's past efforts at whitewashing every mistake made by the KMT. It also fails to mention if those are business days or just the sum total of days including holidays and weekends. If it's business days than it stretches out the time to start a business to over 9 weeks on average. I would like to see the Forbes article as I'm sure that with Taiwan's stellar journalistic record nothing was left out. Rolling Eyes

As far as start up costs I still consider a 2 month wait and $50,000NT unacceptable. For the level of service and quality of infrastructure the gov't provides you'll understand why income taxes are so low.

I read both websites and they are merely extrapolating info from another magazine or giving base info.

Quote:

Yes, and limited liability is not a corporation. A corporation is an ENTITY. A PERSON! Not a company, not a limited liability business. An actual INDIVIDUAL. The promoters have some liability (because the corporation is not in existence yet when they are doing their thing), the directors have none, as does the CEO and anyone else in charge. All mom and pop buxibans in Taiwan are not corporations.

A corporation is not a person. I don't knwo where they taught you this, but you need to ask for your money back. A corporation is a legal entity that protects the shareholders from losses greater than their equity. The officers of the corporation can be held responsible for illegal or fraudulant activities, but not for just bad business sense. If you look carefully at the licenses you will notice in Chinese, you xian gong si(有限公司)=limited liability company. If you look it up in a Chinese/English dictionary 有限公司 is a translation of corporation.

Jason's lack of understanding on Chinese teachers is abominable. I don't think he really speaks Chinese. If you ever want to see how important you are threaten to quit if they don't fire the Chinese teacher(this is if you have reason). The Chinese teacher will stay and you will be out of a job sooner or later. Do you actually believe that Chinese would trust a foreigner over their own ethnicity? You have zero clue on how they see us.

1. Threatening any boss with quitting is bad form anf generally means the end of your working relationship. Think about it, you're trying to hire an employee and if he doesn't get what he wants he just walks out on you. How are you going to feel?

2. Read up on tealit about agents

3. People do not always come to Taiwan for money. Hess is stable and you'll know that you will have a job, support system, and know what to do. How many newbies know how to teach English? It took me 6 months to just get my act together in Taiwan, piece of mind from having legal working papers was just one less headache. For people reading this, make your own decision, if you think you can handle it, then go find better work. I wouldn't recommend chain schools for someone with experience, but it's worth a mention to newbies.

4. You can't verifiably prove that they don't do this a lot and I can't verifiably prove that they do do it a lot. I've only had one job out of 7 take out the correct amount of tax. Only 2 of the schools took out tax and the one that didn't do it right did it for our benefit. 1 job I quit because the boss cheated a former employee out of money and didn't pay her taxes. So who are you going to believe? That's your choice as the reader.

5. Police background checks are only required for JFRV's(you get these for being married to a Taiwanese)!!!! A landing visa can not technically be turned into a resident visa. What the F$#^ are you talking about?

6.

Quote:

The location license, as you call it, is actually a zoning permit that allows you to change the zoning of your area if, for example, you want to operate a cram school in a residential area. If the area is already zoned commercial, you don't need the permit.

This is your quote that I was correcting. A permit is very different from zoning. Do I need to explain this to you?

You can have any idea about my character that you want. I'm in Taiwan, been dispensing what I know for almost 3 years after studying at the Old Man on the Mountain's feet, Killian. You can look up all my posts here, at www.tealit.com, and at www.forumosa.com. I know school owners and businessmen. If you really want a job and are desperate I can hook you up with people who do that. I get nothing for it. I've been legal and done visa runs, so I have experience on both sides of the fence. I speak basic Chinese, am learning Taiwanese, and spend a lot of time talking with coworkers and bosses.

Get over your persecution complex and open your eyes, better yet grab the back of you head and pull. At first the light will be blinding but once you clear your buttcheeks, you should be breathing easier.

XXOO,
Okami

Okami

Joined: 25 Jan 2003
Posts: 121
Location: Sunny Sanxia

Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2003 2:16 pm Post subject:

Mod please delete Last edited by Okami on Mon Oct 13, 2003 2:26 pm; edited 1 time in total

Okami

Joined: 25 Jan 2003
Posts: 121
Location: Sunny Sanxia

Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2003 2:17 pm Post subject:

Moderator please delete

jason_seeburn

Joined: 26 Apr 2003
Posts: 399
Location: Toronto

Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2003 10:48 pm Post subject:

js Last edited by jason_seeburn on Fri Apr 16, 2004 8:20 pm; edited 1 time in total

jason_seeburn

Joined: 26 Apr 2003
Posts: 399
Location: Toronto

Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2003 11:16 pm Post subject:

js Last edited by jason_seeburn on Fri Apr 16, 2004 8:20 pm; edited 1 time in total

brian

Joined: 15 May 2003
Posts: 299

Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2003 4:02 am Post subject:

jason_seeburn wrote:

Regarding me not being very well liked here: I tell things how they are, and everyone gets all personal about it.

I didn�t say liked, I said respected. I don�t think the majority of readers come here to make friends, we come here to give or receive information. You tell things how you THINK they are, or in the case of the Africa Forum, how you WANT them to be. That is not necessarily a factual account of how they are. And there lieth the problem! Respect comes from knowledge in many cases and you just don�t have the level of knowledge required to be espousing it to others.

jason_seeburn wrote:

I happen to know two people in Taiwan (husband and wife) who opened a school without any guanxi at all, and by getting two safety checks on the building and a business license (in the girl's mother's name!). I worked for them. They were very nice people, but not gangsters and not connected. And definately not business people. If they could do it that easily, then all the hocus pocus that has been discussed is all nonsense.

Exactly. You are basing your views entirely on a �second hand� experience from a single example in an isolated area of Taiwan. The fact is that no matter how involved in the process you were, it wasn�t you who filled out the paperwork and dealt with the authorities. The knowledge that you obtained was therefore second hand. Okami and myself also have experiences, which it seems may be somewhat broader than your own individual experience. Whilst our experiences have no doubt been very different, they are clearly in agreement with each other. You choose to ignore these combined experiences and the fact that they collectively disprove what you state. This is ignorance on your behalf.

jason_seeburn wrote:

You guys all make it out like Taiwan is just the most corrupt, dishonest, dangerous and tricky place in the world to live.

Where exactly in my posts do I say this, as I certainly don�t believe it to be the case. In fact, had you taken the time to research my posts you would see that I am very much an advocate for looking on the bright side and doing things the right way. You are big on quoting people so please feel free to quote me where I have suggested that Taiwanese are all dishonest and Taiwan is corrupt.

My understanding is that you were here for nine months but that you were working legally under an ARC supplied by your school. I have a question � not an accusation � but a question. It is my understanding that one requires a minimum twelve-month contract to be approved for an ARC. Did you sign a twelve-month contract and then leave early? Or did you sign a nine-month contract and have the school process this? If it was the latter, did the school process your ARC on the nine-month contract that you signed, or did they submit a falsified 12 month Chinese contract to the government. Just curious, but would appreciate an answer.

jason_seeburn

Joined: 26 Apr 2003
Posts: 399
Location: Toronto

Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2003 12:15 pm Post subject:

js Last edited by jason_seeburn on Fri Apr 16, 2004 8:21 pm; edited 1 time in total

brian

Joined: 15 May 2003
Posts: 299

Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2003 2:49 pm Post subject:

jason_seeburn wrote:

From what you have told us previously it appears that your school gave you an ARC. You have gone on to state that the sponsor name on your ARC was the name of an individual, which I believe we have shown pretty clearly wouldn�t be possible in the situation of a school which would need to be a business and therefore use the business name. Assuming that what you have told us is correct, hasn�t it occurred to you that either:
a) In the eyes of the government, you weren�t actually employed as a teacher (maybe as some sort of home help or something of the like)
b) Your papers were put through in the name of another school or other business

I realize that you don�t believe either of the above to be the case, but isn�t it just possible that this is what happened? This would help to explain how you managed to get an ARC through a school that doesn�t seem to have completed the process of being able to employ a foreigner. Then again, it isn�t uncommon to hear that things operate somewhat differently at government level in different parts of the country, so maybe things did happen in exactly the way Jason has detailed. If so, then that is great for all of those that want to live in Fengyuan (or wherever it was), but care should be taken in trying to extrapolate these experiences across the island.

jason_seeburn wrote:

At any rate, you are both beneath me and I can see why you are so bitter about your experiences over there.

That�s funny! There are absolutely no references in any of my posts that suggest that I am bitter nor unhappy here. You keep suggesting this but have repeatedly failed to provide any quotes that suggest that I believe that all Taiwanese are dishonest or that I have not or do not enjoy my time here. The reason that you can�t provide these posts is because they don�t exist. On the contrary I have found the following on this very board, from a posting made by yourself.

jason_seeburn wrote:

Not caring is a Taiwanese hallmark.... Most are completely incompetent institutions run by people who cannot speak English and have no idea how to teach it, but are socially well connected and can fill classrooms with kids whose parents can well afford to make it worth your while to teach them. These little Bushibans are the best places to work. You make lots of money, do what you like, and are controlled by no one. I live for these places and Kaoshiung and surrounding area is full of them. You don't need to start off in Taipei as a newbie. I started in a little town outside of Taichung (working in one of the above mentioned schools, with one lady who could speak some pidgin English and that was it). I taught, they paid me, and that was all there was to it. If they bothered me I told them I was going home and they never bothered me again.

It seems that you have a more negative view of Taiwan than I do, so please stop suggesting the opposite to be true.

jason_seeburn wrote:

I just left after nine months. Got bored and went somewhere else.

So basically you ran away. You signed an agreement to work at the school for at least a year and then you broke this agreement. This seems a bit sour coming from someone who is such an advocate of doing the right thing by the school and Taiwan people. Of course there are situations where someone can justly break a contract, such as when they are being treated illegally or unjustly, or if the other party to the contract has failed to fulfill their terms of the contract. You on the other hand just decided to leave because you were bored. The fact that they weren�t overly concerned about you leaving early certainly doesn�t speak volumes about your value to the school. Certainly there may have been some advantage to the school in having you leave early and I can certainly not begrudge the owners for accepting your resignation if this were the case.

jason_seeburn wrote:

I found it really funny reading postings from people at the big chain schools who were doing midnight runs because they weren't allowed to quit. The little schools will let you do anything.

I don�t agree with this at all. I know from personal experience that chain schools will let you quit prematurely provided that you follow the correct protocols and show the school and the students a relevant level of respect in doing so. What do I mean by this � well see the following.

If you give the school advance notice (at least two to three weeks) of your intention to leave, and maintain a level of professionalism within the school during this term (regardless of your reasons for leaving) � you will find in many cases that a school will process your resignation and even provide you with a referral letter in order to transfer over your visa. The fact is that you are going to leave no matter what they say or do, so it is in both parties best interests to process you properly. If you have a fit and walk out, fail to show up for classes or start bitching to students and co-teachers about the school then you may not be shown the same level of respect as you would, had you acted more maturely. I don�t think that this is restricted to English cram schools here in Taiwan, and am sure that the same would be true in any job.

The problem seems to be that too many people get a bear on their back about how all the troubles in the world are on their shoulders and that all of these troubles are the fault of the school, that they don�t have enough sense to work through the situation with the school. This is why I think Okami spends so much time talking such teachers down. Asking a teacher in this situation whether all of their problems will be solved by leaving the current school, can be a good way to make things clear in their mind.

I do not support the process of taking deposits nor punishing teachers economically for their decision to break a contract prematurely. I do however believe that schools have a right to expect that teachers breaking their contracts prematurely reimburse the school for any costs incurred on behalf of that teacher (medical check, visa fees etc.). I believe that this is a reasonable expectation and something that most of us agree to in our contracts upfront. It seems to me that so many teachers get so hung up in trying to avoid paying these fees, that they get in their minds that they need to run away. This is unfortunate as in doing a midnight run the teachers may save a few thousand dollars that would have otherwise been deducted by the school, only to find that there are other repercussions. Many of the smaller schools do not cover these costs upfront, so they have no reason to make such deductions from teachers leaving prematurely.

It seems that you agree with me Jason. A quote from an earlier posting of yours:

jason_seeburn wrote:

The phrase "runner" actually originated in South Korea, and is a shortened form of "midnight runner".... In Taiwan you don't need to do this. You can work things out with your school and leave amicably. Even if you work for heartless HESS!

jason_seeburn wrote:

I got tired of seeing my boss walk away with 200%+ of my earnings for doing nothing. I knew how much each student paid to go to my classes, knew her overhead and taxes, knew how much she paid my two assistants, and knew how much she took home from me every month - it was alot, somewhere to the tune of 165,000NT - this for doing absolutely nothing. I helped her start the school and I got the kids to come, and then I became a salaried teacher and she and her husband became quite rich. When I asked them why, they said "it's our building". They were right, they built it (and paid for it with my money).

Of course any company that you work for is going to make money from you. That is their purpose in being, and your purpose for being there. I have never really understood the motives and thinking of those people that worry about what �the other guy� gets as opposed to what you get � as it seems to me that there will always be someone earning more than you. Surely, worrying about others is an exercise in futility and bound to lead to resentment. If you are happy with what you have then enjoy it for what it is. If you are unhappy then leave and find happiness elsewhere. But don�t begrudge others for what they have, simply because you don�t. It would have been interesting to see what would have happened after you invested all of your money into opening a school (which is what I assume that your bosses did). It seems that they were willing to make the commitment, regardless of the impact that this had on the other things that they would have liked to have done (such as pursue their own studies; whereas you shied away from making such a commitment. Having been a business owner myself in the past, I am only too familiar with how naive employees can be regarding the financial, emotional and time investment made by business owners. Sure once a business is up and running and making money things look all very easy, but its what the employees don�t see that sets the men aside from the boys (or the women aside from the girls!). Only once one has been in the position of setting up and running business, and employing people does this generally become apparent.

jason_seeburn

Joined: 26 Apr 2003
Posts: 399
Location: Toronto

Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2003 10:06 pm Post subject:

js Last edited by jason_seeburn on Fri Apr 16, 2004 8:21 pm; edited 1 time in total

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