Job Discussion Forums

[john_n_carolina]

...hmmm, was i just fantasizing?

There is a teacher-training program in English available in all the pedagogical institutes. This program requires the student to spend five years studying grammar, general linguistics, literature, and area studies of the English-speaking countries. The program is remarkably successful considering Cuba's lack of resources�knowledgeable Americans have commented that these programs are current on recent developments in the field of English language teaching�but not surprising, considering that Cuba has always maintained normal contacts with English-speaking Great Britain and Canada, and quiet contacts with the United States.

[grahamb]

Oh, dear, here we go again:
"but, that person you know that spoke "perfect English"....was he/she the one selling coconut juice on the corner, or finishing their Phd. at Univ. of South Florida??"
Here's what I actually said:
"On eight trips to Cuba (staying with Cubans, not insulated in beach resorts), I've met Cubans whose level of English would put many native speakers to shame."
I referred to people, not one person, and I did not use the term "perfect English." If you're going to quote me, have the courtesy to do so accurately.
I'm pleased to see that you have finally acknowledged that Cubans can and do leave Cuba, legally or otherwise. And all those statistics, too. Amazing what you can find out when you try, isn't it?
By the way, your friend's "information" does not reflect reality.

[naturegirl321]

[john_n_carolina]

...ok, those 10 people you met on the corner selling coconut juice and cornbread, were they the ones that would put native American's English to shame, or the ones that studied in the US for 10 years? 1 person is part of a group of many people.

if you are going to make blanket generalizations about native Americans English, let's see your statistics....

the reason i used "perfect": if you are going to use "put to shame", it would have to be perfect English, that's a very strong phrase. it couldn't be just intermediate English or even Advanced.

speaking-wise, i think very few Cubans could ever put to shame Native Americans. even my top top students at the univ where i taught in L.America, would get lost when i spoke to them.

if you want to seperate linguistics into reading, writing, speaking, you probably have some validity. there are probably many Cubans that would put some Alabama plumbers to shame in reading / writing. but, then again, they've known all their life they'll never need it. just like many Cubans (including my friend) who come on the rubber rafts, they'll never need it.

[john_n_carolina]

good point, Naturegirl....but, can you agree with Grahamb's view that Cuba is this "english-speaking" paradise?? it's just not true. maybe, out at the resorts, but not the "common-folk".

very few people that are "non-native" to the US, will ever put to shame American's English, even Dennis Rodman's. maybe they can understand Interchange, but can they really follow a Friend's sitcom for 30 minutes?? or William Buckley, on PBS? or Eminem? or a group of construction workers standing around on break?? don't think so....i know so

...and i haven't even started with taling about humor, sarcasm, multiple meanings, slang....do you know there are more than 15 meanings to the phrase "Excuse me?" just by varying the stress / tone, etc.... let's see all the non-natives list them??

i bet my Arkansas pig farmer can tell you...

[MELEE]

I know of a US Emeritus professor who takes a group of TEFL grad students to Cuba every summer to volunteer English teach at summer schools for all ages. This has been going on for many many years. If anyone is seriously interested I will go through the archives of a TESL listserve that I and this professor are members of and he anounces the trip on. PM me, I will not post it here. Participants pay their own way and praticipate in cultural activities as well as teaching English.

[grahamb]

Why do you assume that native English speaker = American? English is the first language of most people in the UK, Ireland, Canada, Australia and New Zealand. There are quite a few native speakers in South Africa as well. When I talk about native speakers that means anyone whose first language is English. Geography is obviously not your strong point, is it?
I've never seen anyone selling coconut juice or corn bread on a street corner in Cuba. Most vendors I've seen there sell refresco, bread and various sweets from their front door or an adjacent window. What a fertile imagination you have.
Where exactly did I call Cuba an "English-speaking paradise"? I've re-read my postings and can't find that phrase anywhere. Why do you keep putting words in my mouth?
I find it most disturbing that someone who can't use the apostrophe correctly (i.e. "were they the ones that would put native American's English to shame") once taught in a university.

[john_n_carolina]

....i know of several volunteer programs also...but where are the US teachers in Sept? not in Cuba....

there is very little chance of teaching in Cuba, unless you're UK/Canada or maybe European.

[Guy Courchesne]

I think it's more common to see Americans go to Cuba under religious missions...I'd read of the State department granting these types of visas or permissions or waivers (or whatever) to visit Cuba.

[john_n_carolina]

[grahamb]

Here we go again: "there is very little chance of teaching in Cuba, unless you're UK/Canada or maybe European."
John, for someone who's never even been to Cuba, you seem to "know" a lot about the place.

[grahamb]

Okay, here we go.
On my trips to Cuba I have met Cuban English teachers, translators, tour guides, medical professionals, journalists, taxi drivers, agricultural workers and a friend who until recently was a professional layabout. The English speakers among them are quite proficient in the language. I can't comment on their written English, as I wasn't there to perform level assessments. Suffice to say that I have met Cubans whose standard of spoken English compares favourably with many native speakers, regardless of their nationality. In my professional experience I have found that writing is the weakest skill among students of every nationality; it's not a Cuban trait.
In my travels I have met other non-natives (mainly, but not exclusively Europeans) whose English also compares favourably with native speakers.
An English speaker who can't be bothered to use punctuation correctly should consider alternative employment. Stick to babysitting.

[john_n_carolina]

...grahamb, as far as punctuation, everyone know on these forum when i write i don't follow any rules --- lowercase, bad commas, bad phrasing, bad spelling, etc -- and a lot of highly trained people do the same. it just doesnt matter, will i be fined by the "punctuation police?"?

[john_n_carolina]

"I can't comment on their written English, as I wasn't there to perform level assessments. Grahamb

...grahamb, this was my point. unless you've done complete assessments, you can't claim that "many Cubans" would put native English people to shame.

your argument is OK, but you should have stated, "a few" Cubans have pretty good English speaking skills.

but to claim that you have met "many Cubans that would put native English speakers to shame" is preposterous.

how can you base someone's reading comprehension on a conversation in the back of a taxi??

how can you base someone's essay writing skills while sitting on the beach with a tour guide??

i had over 1600 students that i did assessments on in my L.American country....and, i can honestly say there are only 5 or 6 that would even come close to the average American in terms of the 4 skills. and two of them lived here for 3 years.

note: i'm talking about just Americans...because i'm from America and i'm defending those H.S. kids in America, those college students that sit in the library 8 hours a day, and the average American that can read Time Magazine and understand it.

And talking about America....i graduated pretty high up in my class from my private H.S., went out to college in the midwest, and those kids put me to shame....man, that blew my mind....there were kids lightyears ahead of you and I in physics, biology, scoring 96% SAT's, taking senior level courses in Math as Freshmen....

maybe some Cubans could put to shame the average speaker at a truckstop in Missouri...but not the educated America. those truckers, they've know all their life they want to drive, so who cares about English? they don't need proper English, neither do electricians, landscapers, etc

This i would say: Many Cuban boxers, dancers, ballet, singers, baseball players would put Americans to shame

[grahamb]

"but to claim that you have met "many Cubans that would put native English speakers to shame" is preposterous."
It is indeed, John. The problem is, I didn't say that. Here is my statement once again; see if you can spot the difference.
"On eight trips to Cuba (staying with Cubans, not insulated in beach resorts), I've met Cubans whose level of English would put many native speakers to shame."
The quantifier "many" in my statement applies to "native speakers", not "Cubans". Now do you get it?