Job Discussion Forums

[Cleopatra]

Dear John

Are you quite sure that "the West" is putting pressure on the Saudis to "reform"? After all, a democracy in KSA would not neccessarily be in the "West's" best interests, just like a democracy in Egypt or Iraq would not. Perhaps you mean just token reforms like what we may be seeing now? In other words, a PR stunt?

I agree that the Al Saud family are a lot more astute than they're generally given credit for. After all, they've been written off several times in the past and are still going (relatively) strong. I don't think we've seen the back of them just yet. And, of course, with Dubya behind you, how can you fail (don't answer that question!)

[johnslat]

Dear Cleopatra,
Cynical optimist that I am, yes - I do think the House of Saud is being advised that it had better institute some " cosmetic reforms " ( that's the cynical ). But I also believe in " the law of unintended consequences " and I suspect that even an exercise in window dressing is going to set in motion more than the powers-that-be expect or want ( that's the optimist ). It's almost certainly going to be a long, bumpy road but I do think the winds of change are starting to gather force in the Middle East.
And, although they may be just gentle breezes at the moment, I'd say ( and hope ) that those zephyrs ( coincidentally defined as " light winds from the west " ) will build and eventually alter much of the present political and social landscape in ( among other places ) the Kingdom.
Regards,
John

[ohman]

Courageous Arab Thinkers
By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN

Published: October 19, 2003


I should have known something was up when a Saudi diplomat recently asked me, "Do you know what kind of woman is most sought after as a wife by Saudi men today?" No, I said, what kind? "A woman with a job."

What's up are three big shocks hammering the Arab system. . there isn't enough money anymore to. . .provide jobs to the exploding Arab populations. Hence the growing need for wives with work. The second is the Iraq war shock. . .virtually every autocratic Arab regime is starting to prepare for the uncomfortable possibility that by 2005 Iraq will hold a free election. . . (third) . . .the Arab Human Development Report 2002, explained how the deficits of freedom, education and women's empowerment in the Arab world have left the region so behind that the combined G.D.P. of the 22 Arab states was less than that of a single country � Spain. Even with limited Internet access in the Arab world, one million copies of this report were downloaded, sparking internal debates. . .those who worked on this report do not believe in the Iraq-war model of political change. They prefer evolution from within. . .They are convinced that Islam has a long history of absorbing knowledge. But in the modern era an unholy alliance between repressive Arab regimes and certain conservative Muslim scholars has led to the domination of certain interpretations of Islam that serve the governments but are hostile to human development � particularly freedom of thought, women's empowerment and the accountability of governments to their people.

The result? There are just 18 computers per 1,000 people in the Arab region today, compared with the global average of 78.3 per 1,000, and only 1.6 percent of the Arab population has Internet access. In 1995-96 alone, 25 percent of all graduates from Arab universities with B.A. degrees emigrated, while 15,000 medical doctors left the Arab world from 1998 to 2000.

The number of scientists and engineers working in R.&D. in the Arab region is 371 per million citizens, compared with a global rate of 979 per million. Although the Arab region represents 5 percent of world population, it produces only 1.1 percent of the books in the world. There is an abundance of religious books published in the Arab region � more than triple the world average � but a paucity of literary and artistic works. Tons of foreign technology is imported, but it's never really internalized or supplanted by Arab innovations. . . .

What should America's response to all this be? We should stop talking about "terrorism" and W.M.D. and make clear that we're in Iraq for one reason: to help Iraqis implement the Arab Human Development Reports, so the war of ideas can be fought from within. Then we should get out of the way. Just one good model � one good Arab model that works � and you will see more than just municipal elections in Saudi Arabia.

[johnslat]

Dear ohman,
I read that article this morning - and while I agree with a lot of what Mr. Friedman wrote, I have quibbles with this:

" We should stop talking about "terrorism" and W.M.D. and make clear that we're in Iraq for one reason: to help Iraqis implement the Arab Human Development Reports, so the war of ideas can be fought from within. Then we should get out of the way. Just one good model � one good Arab model that works � and you will see more than just municipal elections in Saudi Arabia. "

Just who BEGAN and is keeping up the talk about " terrorism and WMDs " and used all that crap as a " justification " for invasion? Does the end justify the means? And - is the end even what he says: to make Iraq a " model " of democracy? Or were/are there a lot of other reasons for what was done? Do we truly WANT democracy in Iraq, when, from all indications, if free elections were permitted, the people most likely to win them would NOT be those the " West " would want to see in power?
Regards,
John

[ohman]

[johnslat]

Dear ohman,
Maybe the tip-off about Mr. Friedman is just WHOM he's talking to - or trying to. When he suggests:

" We should stop talking about "terrorism" and W.M.D. and make clear that we're in Iraq for one reason: to help Iraqis implement the Arab Human Development Reports, so the war of ideas can be fought from within. Then we should get out of the way. "

who's that " WE "? Why, my guess is that it's the current administration and he actually thinks that they might listen to him. Maybe that Pulitzer went too much to his head - if he really believes those bozos in power are hanging on to his every word.
Regards,
John

[Cleopatra]

I think Friedman is being consciously naive - hang on, there's a word for it 'disingeneous'. He knows damn well that the "West" has never evinced the slightest interest in democracy in the Middle East, and that, in any case, any hint that 'reform' is being done to suit Washington's agenda will kill it stone dead.
And all that patronizing stuff about how the Arabs are so backward... Well, I'm not denying that much of it is true, but it reminds me of an article I read just yesterday about how Arabophobia is back in fashion (never thought it went out myself). It talked about how the neo-cons and their cronies go on and on about 'educating' and 'reforming' the Arabs. the question remains - educating them in what?
I do agree with you, John, that there is cause for - very cautious - optimism in the Kingdom right now. But I for one won't be holding my breath - let's wait for some 'real' reforms like cutting back on Royal subsidies or allowing women to drive.
BTW - one phrase comes to mind here: "There is nothing so dangerous as when a corrupt regime attempts to reform itself". Could Saudi 'glasnost' lead to the demise of the Kingdom? Its a thought...

[ohman]

"What in God's name are you doing forcing Iraqis to accept Turkish peacekeeping troops? Are you nuts?"

Friedman

[johnslat]

Dear ohman,
Nuts? Probably not. Just dumber than dirt and with a breath-taking lack of knowledge about Islam, the Middle East in general and Arabs specifically. Even worse, they seem to be " invincibly ignorant " - absolutely certain they have all the answers when, actually, they don't even know what the questions are. Wake up, Tommy - they're not listening to you. But don't take it personally; they're not listening to anyone besides themselves.
Regards,
John

[guest of Japan]

Johnslat,

As I know you are a fan of the book "Stupid White Men," I recommed you pick up Moore's latest, "Dude, Where's My Country." Someone made reference to it before, but you didn't seem to catch it. I'm about half way through it now. Although I find him to be a little bit optimistic in is liberal ideology, it's an informative and fun read along the lines of its predessesor.

Sorry everyone if this appears to be off-topic, but it's related. Really.

[johnslat]

Dear guest of Japan,
Saw it at Borders bookstore yesterday and intend to pick it up very soon.
And here's an interesting ( at least I think so ) article from the N.Y. Times about Syria: how we're " making friends and influencing people " all over the Middle East ( pretty much as we did in Southeast Asia, back in the '60s ):

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/10/24/international/middleeast/24SYRI.html?th

Regards,
John

[scot47]

Someone told me that a bumper sticker has been spotted in that hotbed of liberalism : Texas

"IRAQ IS ARABIC FOR VIETNAM"

[ohman]

GoJ--not off topic at all.
Moore, like Franken, like the "bad guys" Limbaugh and Reilly, is an entertainer who would step on his punchline if he didn't draw hasty conclusions. For instance, In Bowling for Columbine, he connects the dots between Reagan and 9/11 a bit too fastly and loosely and the same goes for the inferences he makes in Dude between Bushes and the bin Ladens. Moore pays his bills by wallowing in the same facile, tongue-in-cheek muck of his conservative rivals. (Spalding Grey once complained about how being a liberal meant he had to question everything, including himself).

But, hey, Moore's a funny guy--the baseball cap, that ridiculous gut, the Sav-a-Center jeans--it's all schtick. And he's on my side. If he were to go into rehab for an oxy-codone addiction, I'd probably not experience as much shameful joy as I do for the "big, fat idiot".

John,
Is it time to petition Friedman for a mea culpa? he does seem to be weaseling his way out of his original position, that Mickey Rooney/Judy Garland "C'mon people, let's put on a show" cheerleading for a mansion-on-a-hill democracy of this time last year.

Scot, I'm airborne Saudi bound (again) within days, maybe a week or two. What should I expect at the Thursday souks? Smiles or rocks?

[johnslat]

Dear ohman,

" Is it time to petition Friedman for a mea culpa? "

Wouldn't do any good, I'm afraid. He'd stick to his position that the invasion was a GOOD thing ( the ends justify the means ) but it went bad ONLY because those bozos in Washington wouldn't listen to all the great advice he's been trying to give them. Pundits are NEVER wrong - only ignored or misunderstood.
Regards,
John

[johnslat]

From today's ( Oct. 24th ) news on-line:

" Meanwhile, Britain's Foreign Office said Friday it believed that 'terrorists may be in the final phases of planning attacks' in Saudi Arabia.

The Foreign Office gave no details about its information, but said its warning to British nationals against all but essential travel in Saudi Arabia remained in place. "

Of course there IS a " may be " - but in the words of our beloved embassies, keep those profiles low, guys and gals.

Regards,
John