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Cleopatra
Joined: 28 Jun 2003
Posts: 3657
Location: Tuamago Archipelago
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 Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 1:31 pm Post subject: |
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| they will treat her as a 'resident' and a wife of a Saudi citizen, and she will not get a contract of a foreigner teacher. |
I personally know of a few women who are married to Saudis and have international contracts. Getting such a contract is not easy, admittedly, but it is certainly not impossible.
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| a Sinn Fein accent, |
Really, Abba, stick to talking about the things you know about. I've no idea what they may be - perhaps the collected works of MEMRI or the life of a Sudanese maths teacher.
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| The majority of employers in the Kingdom discriminate based on nationality and/or ethnic origin. |
Certainly they discriminate - quite openly - on nationality. But in my experience at least, ethnicity does not come into it. So a British citizen of Pakistani origin will get paid the same as a "white" Brit with similar credentials. A native Pakistani would get considerably less. Of course, teachers of Asian or African origin may well get less respect from both students and colleagues, and are probably less likely to be promoted, but I've not seen this prejudice reflected in their contracts.
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| If you are a fresh PhD holder, you start off at 8,000. |
OK, so I'm wrong and maybe a few cheap-skate colleges offer such an insulting deal. I very much doubt any US passport holder with a PhD (potentially the OP) would dream of accepting it, however. Most MA holders I know earn quite a bit more.
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| Half of my brothers and sisters have blonde hair & blue eyes and look Caucasian |
I'm not familiar with the US use of the term (in any case the word Caucasian is rarely used in other English speaking countries) but I had thought that Arabs and Mexicans were 'officially' considered to be "Caucasian"?
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and even those with western passports may get paid less if they are originally from another country.
I have never come across or heard of a single case of this happening. |
Me neither. As far as I know, you get paid according to whatever is the going rate for a citizen of the country on whose passport you travel to the Kingdom. So, somebody who was born in Egypt and later got US citizenship, and who applied for his visa as an American, would (and would have to be) treated as an American for all purposes. |
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007
Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 2684
Location: UK/Veteran of the Magic Kingdom
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| Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 2:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Cleopatra wrote: |
| .. So, somebody who was born in Egypt and later got US citizenship, and who applied for his visa as an American, would (and would have to be) treated as an American for all purposes. |
Not exactly correct in most cases.
I know an Egyptian who got US citizenship, and got his visa and his contract as a an American, but when he arrived in Saudi Arabia He was treated differently in term of benefits and other issues than his two friends (native Americans)!!
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| Really, Abba, stick to talking about the things you know about. I've no idea what they may be � |
Things I know!! Oh, there are plenty of things I know, from Irish poetry to the theory of mathematical imagination and the death of the Egyptian Cleopatra.
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| ..perhaps the collected works of MEMRI or the life of a Sudanese maths teacher. |
Poor Sudanese and Egyptians maths teachers, always they are discriminated from little Cleo!!
I hope one of our posters with a Sudanese or Egyptian background defends himself and his nation against Cleo�s bubbles and discrimination. |
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supplendary
Joined: 27 Jan 2007
Posts: 11
Location: Florida, USA
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| Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 5:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Cleopatra wrote: |
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| Half of my brothers and sisters have blonde hair & blue eyes and look Caucasian |
I'm not familiar with the US use of the term (in any case the word Caucasian is rarely used in other English speaking countries) but I had thought that Arabs and Mexicans were 'officially' considered to be "Caucasian"?
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Forgive me for my erroneous use of the word Caucasian. I�m aware of its technical meaning, but I misspoke. It was used before me in previous post in the sense to mean European/white looking, and that is what I meant. I don�t know about other countries, but in the U.S., applications and other forms that would ask you for your race will distinguish between white and white of Hispanic origin, and I think people sometimes consider the word Caucasian synonymous with white skin, blue eyes type, not ME or Hispanic looking.
| Cleopatra wrote: |
| I personally know of a few women who are married to Saudis and have international contracts. Getting such a contract is not easy, admittedly, but it is certainly not impossible. |
Do you know if any of them got the contracts while in Saudi? In your opinion, would it be wise to have my husband negotiate my contract, being that he is Saudi, or should I do it myself? |
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007
Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 2684
Location: UK/Veteran of the Magic Kingdom
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| Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 6:41 pm Post subject: |
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| supplendary wrote: |
| I don�t know about other countries, but in the U.S., applications and other forms that would ask you for your race will distinguish between white and white of Hispanic origin, and I think people sometimes consider the word Caucasian synonymous with white skin, blue eyes type, not ME or Hispanic looking. |
�In the United States, the term "Caucasian" has been mainly a distinction based on looking white, and being descended from a people who are "symbolic Christians" (excluding the people descended from the Muslim regions of the Middle East). �
�The Caucasian race, sometimes called the Caucasoid race, is defined by the Compact Oxford English Dictionary of Current English as "relating to a broad division of humankind covering peoples from Europe, Western Asia, and parts of India and North Africa" or "white-skinned; of European origin" or "relating to the region of the Caucasus in SE Europe". The concept's existence is based on the now disputed typological method of racial classification. �
Souce: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasian_race |
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trapezius
Joined: 13 Aug 2006
Posts: 1670
Location: Land of Culture of Death & Destruction
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| Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 6:56 pm Post subject: |
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| So a British citizen of Pakistani origin will get paid the same as a "white" Brit with similar credentials. |
That's quite a statement to be making. How can you speak on behalf of all the employers in this country? I will qualify that statement:
So a British citizen of Pakistani origin can get paid the same as a "white" Brit with similar credentials, or also can get less because he is not a white Brit.
Depends on the profession, the employer, etc. I don't know of enough cases one way or another to make a general statement on this. All I am saying is that it can happen, and does happen. But what is the norm for non-white Westerners, I don't know.
As I said before, I personally know of a couple of cases (and many through others) where British And American citizens of Asian or Arab descent were presented with lower salaries upon arrival to the Kingdom, and they were flat out told something along the lines "but you are not American, you are an Egyptian with an American passport." |
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meri
Joined: 17 Oct 2007
Posts: 31
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| Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 6:57 pm Post subject: Female needing advice before making a permanent move to KSA |
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| Regarding the employment business, I am a caucasian blue-eyed red passport holder, but found no one was interested in me when I had the address of an arab country on my cv and a picture with a head scarf. I have also been offered employment if I only brought one of my three children with me, quite tempting really, but which ones to leave behind? |
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007
Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 2684
Location: UK/Veteran of the Magic Kingdom
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| Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 7:10 pm Post subject: Re: Female needing advice before making a permanent move to |
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| meri wrote: |
| I have also been offered employment if I only brought one of my three children with me, quite tempting really, but which ones to leave behind? |
Difficult decision!
You must have a heart of iron to leave your children behind. |
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Stephen Jones
Joined: 21 Feb 2003
Posts: 4124
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| Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 11:29 pm Post subject: |
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So a British citizen of Pakistani origin can get paid the same as a "white" Brit with similar credentials, or also can get less because he is not a white Brit.
Depends on the profession, the employer, etc. I don't know of enough cases one way or another to make a general statement on this. |
Like Cleopatra, I don't know of a single case where a naturalized citizen has not got the same contract conditions as a citizen by birth, and I know of dozens of cases where the pay has been the same.
Now, there is often discrimination in the hiring, which in the case of hiring English language teachers is both understandable and justifiable. |
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trapezius
Joined: 13 Aug 2006
Posts: 1670
Location: Land of Culture of Death & Destruction
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| Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 11:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Perhaps in the teaching profession they don't discriminate between those 2 classes of people. The cases I know of and have heard of were in non-teaching fields (in medicine and technical fields). |
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scot47
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 15343
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| Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 3:14 am Post subject: |
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| Moscow rules in Moscow ! Do you really expect things in KSA to be like in a cosy Scandinavian democracy ? |
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Mark100
Joined: 05 Feb 2003
Posts: 441
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| Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 7:04 am Post subject: |
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From my experience you are paid in Saudi according to passport.
Aramco and government contracts seem to go that way as do many private companies.
Of course with private contracts anything goes and anything is possible so the passport may not mean so much. |
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Cleopatra
Joined: 28 Jun 2003
Posts: 3657
Location: Tuamago Archipelago
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| Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 1:21 pm Post subject: |
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| That's quite a statement to be making. How can you speak on behalf of all the employers in this country? |
How can I? I can't. Which is why I didn't. Read my post again - I prefaced the comments with "in my experience...." Obviously I don't know what happens in every institution in the country. Neither does anyone else.
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| no one was interested in me when I had the address of an arab country on my cv and a picture with a head scarf. I |
Did you also apply to the same institutions without the scarf and Arab address and receive a positive response? Because if you didn't, I don't think you can neccessarily assume that employers weren't interested in you for the reasons you suspect. |
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007
Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 2684
Location: UK/Veteran of the Magic Kingdom
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| Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 5:02 pm Post subject: |
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| scot47 wrote: |
| Moscow rules in Moscow ! Do you really expect things in KSA to be like in a cosy Scandinavian democracy ? |
Yes, Uncle Scot, you are right, in Moscow, Comrade is Comrade , and in Riyadh, Sadick is Sadick.
Moscow is not Riyadh, and Riyadh is not Stockholm, and Wahabism is not Scandinavism!
BTW, Uncle Scot, why did you hijack and �execute� my previous post about BG?  |
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Griff-James
Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Posts: 171
Location: A place full of 18 year olds and endless ale. Not not this time.
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| Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 7:17 pm Post subject: |
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| I need a beer. |
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canadashirleyblue
Joined: 06 May 2007
Posts: 162
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| Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 11:09 am Post subject: |
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OK. So she goes to Saudi. Presumably eventually she can take out Saudi citizenship?
If she were to do that then she might get a better job in the long term with the PhD? |
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