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BJ · Joined: 03 Dec 2003 Posts: 173

Erm, good photos - your point is very obtuse, hitting children leads to mass warcrimes? very good. Amazing we dont have thousands of killing fields throught europe. Asia should be a waste land. whats that 1.2 billion in China?

No one is arguing about sadistic teachers or manic proffesors, or the bully policman, the question revolves around how to maintain control in a class.

In a society where the "rights" of the individual outweigh the rights of the society, social control goes out of the window. With no social control, how do you maintain a working environment. Recently in AMerica, a woman teacher took her school to court because the refused to deal with children "racially" abusing her in class. The word spread nothing will happen and the class became uncontrollable.

What I am saying is that punishment, or the threat of punishment is one method of social control, remove it and children will continue to push the boundaries to see how far they can get.

I do not like CP, and I have often told teachers I see hitting children not to. I have never hit a child in my life, confronted many a 18+.

In the last year, one of my clases became a nightmare, and resulted in the expulsion of 2 students, the rest of the "gang" are still in my class, and now behave, at least in front of me and in my class, proberly. All of the CHinese female teachers were scared of them, the male teachers , shrugged their shoulders, I forced the issue. These were not children but 19 year olds, who had gotten away with bad behaviour in school. the rigleaders father was actually a ranking policman.

SO please Truck, explain to us how you would stop, bullying, sexual harassment, fighting, knives, total disruption, swearing, misbehaviour in your class? Other than report it? pass the buck upwards.

Sometimes reasoning with youngsters dosnt work.

craigzy · Joined: 20 Mar 2006 Posts: 87 Location: taichung

at many of the buxibans i sub at, theres a stick in every classroom. some of them have been untouched for so long theyre accumulating dust, but theres no way theyll ever be removed.

a strange thing happened in one of my worst 'out of control' classes today. i spoke to them as if they were adults (they are between 10 and 12 years old), and they were more well-mannered and attentive than some of my adult classes. i was amazed, but the other chinese teachers there were in shock.

lucky day, i guess.

trukesehammer · Joined: 25 Mar 2003 Posts: 168 Location: The Vatican

BJ · Joined: 03 Dec 2003 Posts: 173

You are now equating corporal punishment with the slaughter of 6 million jews and millions of socialist, gays, handicaped, not to mention 20 million Ruussian civilians? ERm wow what an amazing leap.
Wonder when I will grow horns and bring the apocolypse about due to my treatment as a child.

My point was that the rise of student violence in schools in europe could be due to the lack of discipline at an early age. Children in all countries will push as far as they can the boundaries, and without adequate measures to stop this behaviour it will spiral out of control.

In my present college in the last 8 years , we have witnessed 2 rapes of students by students, 1 direct suicide (from a building on campus), another off campus, Physical intimidation of students by students and students on teachers. WHilst this is small fry it is similar on most campuses. The authorities try and hush them up as it tarnsihes the school repuattion, have a word with your Jagwons (military officers) about discipline, it really is an eye opener. WHilst I think most students in TAiwan are well behaved, I have seen a deteriation of this in the last 15 years, the last 5 of which CP has been "abolished" by the government here, or so they say.
My quest to you is how long before Taiwan gets itself in the same mess as the US and EUrope with their children?

8 or 9 years ago when i was teaching at Chung Yuen a group of senior school students victimised 2 girls, burning their bodies with cigerttes, cutting them with machettes, before leaving them in a storm drain to die Hsinchu area I believe it was. Watch the Taiwanese news, it really is an eye opener into the dark side of the country

Of course this is only one factor in a complex matter , but a significant one.

My points were never about the one child you know, but the attitude of children today. I am suprised that the tecaher is still working as the ministry of Educations policy is quiet strict. In most schools discipline is now left to a "named teacher" to instill fear as a last resort, but the person you are descriping seems to be an out of control sadist who needs reporting.

Ask your students by the way how many of them had a ruler over their knuckles at school, most will admit yes sheepishly, perhaps thats why the students here are better behaved than the states?
SO I repeat my question how do you stop this behaviour, or do you just move to another field?

Miyazaki · Joined: 12 Jul 2005 Posts: 635 Location: My Father's Yacht

BJ · Joined: 03 Dec 2003 Posts: 173

I have actually been to Auswitz and Treblenka, What you dont see in the link is not the view but the sound. It is totally quiet (or was some 30 odd years ago when i went) not even birds singing, the mounds are brown grass, whilst around it is green, a simple sign says a number , 5,000 etc as you walk past the mass graves.

The child who never does anything wrong, always attends school, is never repremanded could never of course do anything wrong as they are psycologically much fitter than the kid who received CP.

The reason you dont teach in the US is probably because of the students who dont receive CP.

BJ · Joined: 03 Dec 2003 Posts: 173

From todays BBC news, have a read

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/west_yorkshire/7222183.stm

Boy stabbed in classroom, gang culture, revenge on the bully? Unfortumnately this is becoming mor eand more prebvailent. The statement "the teachers find it hard to deal with" sums up the argument.

trukesehammer · Joined: 25 Mar 2003 Posts: 168 Location: The Vatican

Oh dear, it appears my attempts at communication are failing miserably. It seems I owe BJ and Miyazaki my sincerest apologies. Let me see if I can untangle the mess I've made...

Actually you guys are preaching to the choir when it comes to the subject of corporal punishment.

For example, up here in Canada, we First Nations folks are making a big deal about Residential School Money. The Canadian government is paying for decades of cultural and linguistic genocide, where back in the old days, government agents would sneak into Indian neighborhoods, grab a bunch of kids, and throw them into boarding schools where they were "civilized."

Hang on, I'm getting to my point(s); I promise...

It's a good thing I went to "day school" because I honestly believe there would be some nuns coming after me for reparations otherwise. I bet even to this day, whenever the nuns hear my name, they get the willies. In fact, in one of my graduation photos the nuns look so happy to get rid of me, almost like they're going to jump for joy and do cartwheels (like when Ace Ventura decided to leave the monastery).

Almost there...

Why were the nuns so happy? Because I must have been the biggest monster in the history of the parochial school system. Other than the times when Sister Fatty Patty would gag us for speaking our native languages, I honestly believe I deserved every rap across the knuckles, every hair pulling, and every fanny paddling I got. It sure helped keep me on the straight and narrow. So you won't get any argument out of me when it comes to the need for corporal punishment in the classroom.

What I am objecting to, however, is (1) the specific case of Mr. Xu's deplorable treatment of students. Truly, his d*ckensian treatment of students went way beyond the bounds of proper corporal punishment and landed squarely within the bounds of sadism. (2) I am also objecting to the idea of judging who gets disciplined, paddled, clobbered, or clubbed on the basis of looks alone.

I know it sounds like a ridiculous leap from this to the mass slaughter of innocents, but my friends in Cambodia will assure you it is not. Every summer I like to haul my overfed behind to do volunteer work at a Cambodian orphanage and the stories alone are enough to make your spirit wither. In short, the Kmer Rouge imprisoned, tortured, and murdered people for being intellectual, for being too wealthy, or even for "looking dangerous."

Me: Why did they kill your grandfather?
Boy: Because he wore glasses and only smart people wear glasses.
Girl: They killed many (of) my family because we look Vietnamese.

But back to the subject of corporal punishment, again, you guys won't get any argument out of me here. If you ask me, I'd say the current ultraliberalized trends in both parenting and education have gone berserk. In California, for example, parents can be imprisoned for spanking their own children! Teachers can get canned (not caned) for confiscating students' weapons? What the *@#& is up with that?

As for current disciplinary trends in Taiwan, I can only hope and pray things never get so bad in my Adopted Home Country. Everyone knows we "foreigners" have no real power in Taiwan, but we still have hope and we still have prayer. Every once in a RARE while, we get good parents and bosses who actually listen to us and respond to our suggestions in positive ways.

Ultimately, however, the power to stop increasingly wild student behavior rests within the hearts and hands of the Taiwanese people themselves.

PS: Not that it matters, but the photos I took above came from a high school called Toul Sleng

PPS: Howcome I can't type the name of a famous author in this 'ere forum?

Charles Dickens!
Charles Dickens!
Charles D*ckens!
Emily Dickinson!
Emily Dickinson!
Emily D*ckinson!

craigzy · Joined: 20 Mar 2006 Posts: 87 Location: taichung

its cuz dave is raking in more money per month than tealit, and he doesnt want to piss off anyone.

Miyazaki · Joined: 12 Jul 2005 Posts: 635 Location: My Father's Yacht

BJ · Joined: 03 Dec 2003 Posts: 173

I think Truck, that we basically agree, but from different perpectives. Mine comes from seeing the over liberalisation and restrictions on CP, and the increase in viulonce in and outside of the classroom. Im sure Myz was also referring to this, Often the first sign of trouble IS visual.
CHewing gum, body language, clothing, attitude are often clues to who the troublemakers are.
It is the quiet seeting ones you really need tobe careful off,

The Khemer rouge killed anyone and anything that might oppose them, A wrong word or look could see you imprisoned. But again, I dont think you can associate it with CP.

The teacher you are talking about, someone many of us here dont know, is probably a sadistical *beep* as you say, my point was a larger generaliszation, as I can only a nod to what you say as I dont know the details, situatiom, person etc etc.

To place my point again, against the backdrop of being a socialist who has NEVER hit a child, I have for many years been fighting to put the other side of the argument out there that discipline is a social control method, and children who grow yup with no idea of social control other than pecking order of the schoolground bullies, and louts find themselves in an ungovernable system which will lead to more facistical states, than corrrectly carried out disciple by named teachers. Not sadistical lunatics.

pest2 · Joined: 28 Oct 2006 Posts: 170

pest2 · Joined: 28 Oct 2006 Posts: 170

Oliver Twist:

"Pleeeeasseee sirrr, might I have some more?"

"moooooooooooooooooore!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

WHACK WHACK..

Indeed, I long for good ole days of yesteryear when we were a more civilized lot!

BJ · Joined: 03 Dec 2003 Posts: 173

Interesting, perhaps it has changed, It was in the early 70's when I went to Auscwitz, Just a notice board pointing the way, and a small building to remember the dead, my soldier collegues mentioned the absolute silence, just the 4 of us walking around. Perhaps visitors may have brought about the change.

pest2 · Joined: 28 Oct 2006 Posts: 170