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G Cthulhu
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Posts: 1373
Location: Way, way off course.
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 Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 4:48 pm Post subject: Re: Still unsure |
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| Never Ceased To Be Amazed wrote: |
As far as getting your Japanese taxes back, I don't think that that's doable. As my wife is Japanese, she would've found out about that knowing my feelings about paying taxes on services not rendered. However, the good news for you in paying U.S. taxes, the tax treaty (  which I devilishly pointed you in the direct of ) is a treaty that prevents double taxation, so when you file, you can have the Japanese amount deducted.
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Taxes between the US and Japan are not quite that simple. The US laws covering taxes changed again in 2004 (2005? don't have the paperwork handy) to include a Social Sceurity Totalization treaty arrangement, which muddies the waters considerably. I'm assuming the Japanese laws changed as well (it being a treaty and all) but I haven't ever bothered to check on it from that end. Given Japanese tax rates are lower than the US, it doesn't really save you any money; if you earn enough to trigger US taxes then you're liable. EOFS. It's one of the "benefits" of US citizenship.
As far as Japanese taxes go, individual filing for a refund on overpaid taxes is dead simple compared to the US: visit the local tax office with your tax receipt and go through the forms with the paper-shuffler there. They can tell you in about ten minutes if you get a refund or not. Your employer is supposed to give you a copy of the tax return they filed showing the summary information anyway. |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 12:11 am Post subject: |
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I agree with Cthulhu. I think you are confused about some tax treaty (which I'm not aware of) and this (which is what Cthulhu mentioned).
http://www.socialsecurity.gov/international/Agreement_Pamphlets/japan.html
Either that, or you hav a poor way of explaining what I did earlier. That is, Americans must file, but they are exempt from paying taxes on a certain amount of money earned abroad. (The amount changes/increases every year.)
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| As a long term expat, I have a real problem in paying ANY U.S. tax as taxes are for entitlements such as Social Security (for which you are not entitled to while living abroad) and infrastructure |
Just how fair do you want Uncle Sam to be? You get a real deal on exemption from money you earn overseas. You yourself claim to be a long term expat, so I assume you aren't making much if anything from any jobs in the USA, therefore you aren't getting taxed on that. Anything else you have which is getting taxed is probably fair game (a home or property you own there, property there you rent out, U.S. stocks you own, etc.). As for Social Security, that has just been taken care of to a degree, so even though you aren't earning U.S. SS credits while living abroad, you can use the credits from working in Japan now (thanks to the 2005 treaty I linked above). Sounds like you want your cake and want to eat it, too.
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| (Ha! They tax your income, and THEN retax you when you try to spend whatever they let you keep!) when I take my 2-month summer vacations. |
Are you referring to sales tax now? Totally different situation from income taxes, and a fact of life in many countries. Besides, no one is forcing you to take your vacations in the U.S. |
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Andru
Joined: 23 Apr 2006
Posts: 22
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| Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 9:33 am Post subject: Re: Still unsure |
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| Never Ceased To Be Amazed wrote: |
| ...entitlements such as Social Security (for which you are not entitled to while living abroad)... |
Huh? That isn't true if you are a US citizen and are eligible for SSA payments. And it is also not true for citizens of certain countries, who are eligible for SSA payments. Read this:
http://www.socialsecurity.gov/pubs/10137.html |
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Never Ceased To Be Amazed
Joined: 22 Oct 2004
Posts: 3500
Location: Shhh...don't talk to me...I'm playin' dead...
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| Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 1:52 pm Post subject: Re: Still unsure |
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| Glenski wrote: |
| I agree with Cthulhu. I think you are confused about some tax treaty (which I'm not aware of) and this (which is what Cthulhu mentioned). |
I'll have to agree with both of you. I was using some dated knowledge as the last time I paid Japanese taxes was in 2003. But I was assured by the Consulate in Fukuoka that the crux of the tax agreement was to offset what was paid in Japanese taxes as far as income tax was concerned...at that time.
| Glenski wrote: |
| Either that, or you hav a poor way of explaining what I did earlier. That is, Americans must file, but they are exempt from paying taxes on a certain amount of money earned abroad. (The amount changes/increases every year.) |
No, not really. The text that you copied, which is correct clearly says may qualify to exclude... This is why I told thecrit840 s/he would not qualify as s/he doesn't meet the the Bona Fide or Physical Presence tests. I didn't think that I had to add the U.S. expats are punted around regularly as a political football and that, usually, the end result is an incremental rise in the exclusion. For example, pre-1996, the exclusion for those who qualified was USD 70,000, then Congress (or the I.R.S...who, doesn't matter) changed the exemption to USD 80,000 over a five-year period. After all, the point was that s/he doesn't qualify based on the evidence at hand.
| Quote: |
| As a long term expat, I have a real problem in paying ANY U.S. tax as taxes are for entitlements such as Social Security (for which you are not entitled to while living abroad) and infrastructure |
| Glenski wrote: |
| Just how fair do you want Uncle Sam to be? You get a real deal on exemption from money you earn overseas. You yourself claim to be a long term expat, so I assume you aren't making much if anything from any jobs in the USA, therefore you aren't getting taxed on that. Anything else you have which is getting taxed is probably fair game (a home or property you own there, property there you rent out, U.S. stocks you own, etc.). As for Social Security, that has just been taken care of to a degree, so even though you aren't earning U.S. SS credits while living abroad, you can use the credits from working in Japan now (thanks to the 2005 treaty I linked above). Sounds like you want your cake and want to eat it, too. |
Again, an honest disagreement here, plus some poor wording. Why do you think that Uncle Sam is owed a dime that we earn overseas? The whole reason, I figure, that they even have an exemption is that they have no way of getting this information from foreign governments. At least, this way, they get an idea of what someone makes. I think that they want it for statistical purposes. Those who do earn over the exemption, can give them any 'ol number they want. There is no way to prove any different! I recently heard of the new treaty and am glad tht it was ratified. I understand that you can receive SSA credits while in Japan...I also thought that you could make payments while in Japan as well as a handful of other countries...something to research. But, upon, review, I see how it could be read as not being able to receive benefits...and you can. Sloppy wording.
As far as having my cake and eating it too, um, yeah! I'm fully vested in SSA, but unlike many who live in work in Japan, I've adopted an expat lifestyle that has spanned 18 years. All that time, up until 2005 if I still worked and lived in Japan (as well as a few more) my life has been on hold as far as my U.S. pension is concerned...and that is if I live long enough to recieve the pittance that it will be as they keep pushing the ages back as to when you can start to be eligible to recieve any benefits. My cake, sir, is my savings as I'll have next to nothing coming from the government when I go back to retire.
I have nothing against my paying sales or property taxes. I would have a problem with sales tax if I paid an income tax, but the property tax is for schools, fire departments and other municipal outlays...I don't have a problem with that! I have a house in the states that I pay taxes on, and, you'll notice that I made no mention of them
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| (Ha! They tax your income, and THEN retax you when you try to spend whatever they let you keep!) when I take my 2-month summer vacations. |
| Glenski wrote: |
| Are you referring to sales tax now? Totally different situation from income taxes, and a fact of life in many countries. Besides, no one is forcing you to take your vacations in the U.S. |
The quote that you are trying to make is incomplete, I'm sure, an oversight. If you read the full quote, Glenski, you'll see that I was speaking of both sales and gas taxes.
[quote="Andru"]
| Never Ceased To Be Amazed wrote: |
| ...entitlements such as Social Security (for which you are not entitled to while living abroad)... |
Huh? That isn't true if you are a US citizen and are eligible for SSA payments. And it is also not true for citizens of certain countries, who are eligible for SSA payments.
You are quite right. My info on SSA is dated pre-2005. Since I live in a big sandbox, I haven't been following U.S.-Japan treaties closely since leaving in 2002.
NCTBA |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 9:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| I understand that you can receive SSA credits while in Japan...I also thought that you could make payments while in Japan as well as a handful of other countries...something to research. |
What do you mean by "make payments"? Do you mean you thought you could put into the American social security system while living in Japan? I've been here since the late 90s and had an SSA record sent to me a few times. Zero additions. Makes sense since the money I earned comes only from Japan.
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| They tax your income, and THEN retax you when you try to spend whatever they let you keep!) when I take my 2-month summer vacations. |
It was no oversight on my part about failing to include your statement about gas taxes and sales taxes when I quoted the above. I just find it hard to imagine someone complaining as you did with the emphasized word "then" above. You seem to be talking about being taxed twice and complaining. But some of your statements seem contradictory.
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| As a long term expat, I have a real problem in paying ANY U.S. tax |
then
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| I, myself, sleep well at night knowing that I more than enough contribute towards the use of U.S. infrastructure by paying extraordinarily high governement gas taxes and state sales taxes |
then back again with
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| (Ha! They tax your income, and THEN retax you when you try to spend whatever they let you keep!) |
Which is it? You don't want to pay U.S. taxes or you don't mind? |
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G Cthulhu
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Posts: 1373
Location: Way, way off course.
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 3:32 am Post subject: |
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| Glenski wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I understand that you can receive SSA credits while in Japan...I also thought that you could make payments while in Japan as well as a handful of other countries...something to research. |
What do you mean by "make payments"? Do you mean you thought you could put into the American social security system while living in Japan? I've been here since the late 90s and had an SSA record sent to me a few times. Zero additions. Makes sense since the money I earned comes only from Japan.
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You both seem to be talking at crossed purposes. 
There is a tax treaty between Japan and the US. It acts to prevent double taxation and provides certain tax free options (eg. first two years in Japan for yanks, first one year in the US for Jpns. Income exemption for X amount in both countries. blahblahblah) This treaty has been in place for yonks - what, 20+ years?
There is also a Social Security Totalization treaty. This is much more recent. Under certain circumstances it allows you to nominate which SS system you pay into. Except for some very specific exceptions, it usually only applies to people that are being *transferred* between countries by their employers. If you're moving of your own accord from country to country then you're usually fresh out of luck for nominating which country you are a SS resident of. |
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Never Ceased To Be Amazed
Joined: 22 Oct 2004
Posts: 3500
Location: Shhh...don't talk to me...I'm playin' dead...
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| Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:30 am Post subject: |
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| G Cthulhu wrote: |
| You both seem to be talking at crossed purposes. |
Thanks G Cthulhu. Whether or not you agree with my sentiments. I had stopped watching this thread as Glenski seemed to be cherry-picking my remarks and not answering the simple question posed to s/he, I determined that it was not worth my time, even after my knowledge/interest of what or what you not have to pay in taxes to U.S. vs. Japan.
I am content in my feelings of what I do or do not owe knowing what taxes are for and are used for.
I am neither contributing to things that I stand firmly against nor am I riding on the shoulders of U.S. taxpayers. As I said before, my retirement will consist mainly on what I earn while working overseas and as I have maybe another 15 years of that, I'd rather be contributing to my own private SSA instead of helping build up the one that'll be paying my cousins whilst I'll be getting a paltry amount when I hang up my ballet shoes.
NCTBA |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 12:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Never Ceased To Be Amazed wrote: |
| I had stopped watching this thread as Glenski seemed to be cherry-picking my remarks and not answering the simple question posed to s/he, I determined that it was not worth my time, |
Exactly what question did I avoid answering? |
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Never Ceased To Be Amazed
Joined: 22 Oct 2004
Posts: 3500
Location: Shhh...don't talk to me...I'm playin' dead...
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| Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 8:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Glenski wrote: |
| Exactly what question did I avoid answering? |
| Never Ceased To Be Amazed wrote: |
| Why do you think that Uncle Sam is owed a dime that we earn overseas? |
Exactly
Sorry to draw your ire, sire...
NCTBA |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 10:15 am Post subject: |
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No ire. (and you can drop the sarcastic "sire"), just curiosity because I thought I had answered everything.
As for your question, I thought it might have been fairly rhetorical, and I thought I had actually provided an answer even before you posted it. Here it is:
Just how fair do you want Uncle Sam to be? You get a real deal on exemption from money you earn overseas. You yourself claim to be a long term expat, so I assume you aren't making much if anything from any jobs in the USA, therefore you aren't getting taxed on that. Anything else you have which is getting taxed is probably fair game (a home or property you own there, property there you rent out, U.S. stocks you own, etc.).
Now, how about you answering some of my questions?
1. Do you make more than the exemption salary of $85,000 (or whatever it was whenever you were living overseas)?
2. I don't know why the U.S. even has an upper limit on the exemption, thus allowing it to tax Americans on foreign money earned over that limit. Do you know the official word?
3. Are you complaining about being taxed on just your salary earned overseas (a non issue if it's below the exemption limit), or are you complaining about being taxed on stuff you have back home (like I mentioned, property, home, car, stocks, etc.)?
4. As far as the topic you don't want to be bringing up here (funding the war), that's just fine, but as long as you are an American citizen, it really doesn't matter where you live. Your taxes serve your country, whether you believe in the uses for the taxes or not. Is this not acceptable? (If not, then it is up to you and all other Americans whether or not they live abroad to do something about the way the taxes are distributed. Good luck on that.)
So, now that I have shown you that I'm not "cherry-picking" questions to answer, I hope you can be a little more polite and less snippy about things, and a lot more straightforward in the above Qs. Thanks in advance. |
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Never Ceased To Be Amazed
Joined: 22 Oct 2004
Posts: 3500
Location: Shhh...don't talk to me...I'm playin' dead...
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| Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 10:52 am Post subject: |
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Hey, there, Glenski. This has become a you vs. me thing and it never should have. Let's give the denizens of this thread a break and let people get back to the topic. I'll PM you and we'll communicate better.
P.s.- Jes' jokin' with the "sire" stuff...just couldn't resist the temptation to rhyme!
Cheers, mate!
NCTBA |
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Never Ceased To Be Amazed
Joined: 22 Oct 2004
Posts: 3500
Location: Shhh...don't talk to me...I'm playin' dead...
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| Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 6:50 am Post subject: |
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Well...Glenski, instead of lamblasting you publicly on this thead as you have me, I lived up to my pledge and PMed you the next day spending at least two hours thinking about what to write and extending to you an olive branch...but you have not responded. This gives me an advised understanding on those, like yourself, not retired, who have the number of postings like you...you have much more time on your hands than what most responsible people have.
No need to respond, as I'm sure you will. I tried to reduce the flames, but I'm sure that you will throw gas on the fire, which I sought to remove the oxygen from as it does no good for those who seek information. Good day, sir, you no longer have my interest in engaging.
NCTBA |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 1:45 pm Post subject: |
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Since you feel the need to take this public, I'll oblige.
I read your post the moment it arrived. In full. The response requires some time to put together. However, let me tell you that I've been incredibly busy. Yes, too busy to respond. Perhaps you are not aware, but this was a week of final exams, so that meant giving tests and correcting homework in order to assign grades. I also had to take care of 2 straggling students with outstanding HW and serious academic problems just so they could graduate (pressure from above forced me to do extra work for them even though they didn't really deserve it). Then, in case you didn't know, this was the week of entrance exams which sucked 2 days out of my life until 9pm. This week also included a day where I had to provide off-campus training to international visitors, meet deadlines for grades and for writing 3 syllabuses. On top of that, my students in one course are sponsoring their own training of foreign students for a week solid, starting tomorrow, so I have been deluged with proofreading their puny efforts at writing everything in English. On top if that, I have a boatload of proofreading deadlines that have long since gone, so people are looking to me for their work. I know you don't give a rip, but that's been my life professionally in just one stinking week. You might want to consider cutting me some slack and asking me privately if I got your message. I know of quite a few people at universities who actually finished a while ago and took vacations! Bet you didn't consider that.
This week, two people emailed me to ask for help on emergency resumes. (I get those requests about once a month, along with about 2 dozen other related emails.) Since tomorrow is the start of March (peak hiring season), their email required a bit more urgency than your PM.
I'm also an editor on a teachers' blog, which requires my attention daily, and especially now because we have a cretin from another discussion group trying to spam it. That same teachers' group has also invited me to make a presentation in a few short weeks, so I have been working on putting that together as well. More time lost, yet just a wee bit more important in my life than answering a PM about taxes.
Do I have the intention of responding to your PM? I did just before I read your post. Was actually going to take a crack at it tonight or part of tomorrow, despite my proofreading load and the students' training course where I have to participate on the bloody weekend.
Forget it now.
Next time, keep the private conversation private, ok? |
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Mr. Kalgukshi
Mod Team
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Posts: 6613
Location: Need to know basis only.
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| Posted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 11:57 pm Post subject: |
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| This thread is producing Report Post complaints. Please stay on topic and address the message and not the messenger. Otherwise, the thread will no longer be available along with the possibility of other Moderator actions. |
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