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Will.
Joined: 02 May 2003
Posts: 783
Location: London Uk
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 Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2003 10:41 pm Post subject: |
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Some they do an' some they don't an some you just can't tell.
Students have had the decency to turn up and they may have worked all night ,had an hour or two down at the internet cafe before school and fall asleep in class. Ok let 'em sleep. They don't bother me. That is respect. I can not make them learn, but if I can find out why they are asleep maybe I can find a quiet corner they can get a few hours kip before school and they may be more respectful for the gesture.
I am suit and tie teacher, but I have taught in shorts and tee shirt, swimming togs and also in a Santa outfit. As long as the content of the lesson is interesting and the students are enjoying the process of learning who cares what they wear. When they leave the clasroom they want to be able to say they learnt something.
Experience is a hard teacher, we keep going back into that classroom.... because last time we learnt something and next time we want to do better.
Yes! I have blown it more than a few times too, quit a few jobs too, been threatened with a kneecap job, used language I am not proud of. I keep going back for more.
Get them interested, go 'off book' for a few lessons. It is not an 'us and them' situation it is an 'us' situation. There are no winners unless it is everyone, and if the guy asleep finds out he missed a 'good' lesson maybe next lesson he won't fall asleep so easily.
Sermon over. |
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shmooj
Joined: 11 Sep 2003
Posts: 1758
Location: Seoul, ROK
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| Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2003 12:07 am Post subject: |
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The "problem" with the approach this teacher adopted is, in my way of looking at it, one of reaction versus proaction. I seriously doubt whether his actions had any great effect on the students. Perhaps he lacks experience of Japanese classrooms but there are plenty of factors that contribute to what he felt was "disrespect" by the students. He isn't going to solve it in one lesson and he isn't going to understand it if he reacts this way.
The System is too big for one to change it in one lesson. If he had understood this, he would have adopted some alternative approaches. For me, the main one would be to get some of the Japanese teaching staff on my side before taking any action in class. What he did could have, as others have mentioned, seriously isolated him not only from the students but perhaps more importantly from the other teachers. Goodness knows what it did for the reputation of foreign teachers at that school too. I pity whoever comes after him... |
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J-Pop
Joined: 07 Oct 2003
Posts: 215
Location: USA
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| Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2003 12:24 am Post subject: good points |
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| shmooj wrote: |
| I seriously doubt whether his actions had any great effect on the students. . . . there are plenty of factors that contribute to what he felt was "disrespect" by the students. He isn't going to solve it in one lesson and he isn't going to understand it if he reacts this way. |
Yes.
| shmooj wrote: |
The System is too big for one to change it in one lesson. If he had understood this, he would have adopted some alternative approaches. For me, the main one would be to get some of the Japanese teaching staff on my side before taking any action in class. What he did could have, as others have mentioned, seriously isolated him not only from the students but perhaps more importantly from the other teachers. Goodness knows what it did for the reputation of foreign teachers at that school too. I pity whoever comes after him... |
Several good points here. Right on. For me, maybe the most important point: other teachers.
I always tried to keep in mind that I was only there for a short period of time & did not want to ever (even inadvertently) cause problems for my Japanese counterparts. The Japanese teachers were there (usually) before I arrived & would remain after I left. I think this could have (probably did) cause a lot of embarassment (maybe loss of face?) for the Japanese teacher involved. |
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struelle
Joined: 16 May 2003
Posts: 2372
Location: Shanghai
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| Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2003 3:02 am Post subject: |
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| What i think is that the teacher must have been driven to take the drastic measure he did. I don't think he's a bad teacher, but rather a teacher who was frustrated. |
Likewise, as I've had similar cases where students showed a lack of respect and I felt like 'teaching a lesson' as it were. When I get these dynamics, it is extremely frustrating, but I manage to bite my tongue, keep the professional attitude, and get on with the lesson. I've seen colleagues lose it and yell at their students during class before, but it's counter-productive to gaining respect.
Still, I found a successful creative way to release anger at times. Once I was fed-up with my class, but the topic was shopping. So I decided to set up a role-play where the customer wanted to complain. In this ficticious role-play situation, I simulate the language the character might use. For example, the salesperson gave him a wrong product: "I asked for _____, not ____". While I modeled this language to the class, I raised my voice, shouted, and got extremely pissed off.
It worked like a charm, because the students thought it was part of the role-play, and I wasn't yelling at them. This injected some fresh energy into the class, and a lively dialogue ensued.
I've never thrown desks or slammed books down, though, I think this goes way over the line, as per the Japan teacher's behavior.
Steve |
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Wolf
Joined: 10 May 2003
Posts: 1245
Location: Middle Earth
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| Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2003 4:44 am Post subject: |
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| shmooj wrote: |
| What he did could have, as others have mentioned, seriously isolated him not only from the students but perhaps more importantly from the other teachers. Goodness knows what it did for the reputation of foreign teachers at that school too. I pity whoever comes after him... |
I wonder as well. However, I have heard of Japanese teachers doing this or worse. Beating students, etc. The world isn't divided into "Japan" and "everywhere else." If his co-workers paint all "foreingers" with the same brush over one incident not unlike scenes local teachers make, well that's far, far beyond one frustrated teachers' ability to control. Especially if this school is in a region with a HISTORY of foreign ALTs as well as a FUTURE. If that district has had ALTs for the past 10 or even 5 years, then it HAS to be obvious - to anyone willing to see it - that an Amercian raised in Greenland is different from an Indian is different from a Nova Scotian is different from an Austrialian of Italian descent is different from . . . . (and that even one indivdual just is going to be different from another in some way.)
I really truly honestly wonder if, in the long run, inviting "outsiders" in and having them give their take on things (even in such a hapazard way) won't have a GOOD effect in the long run. Thesis (domestic ideas) + antithesis (input from "outside) = synthesis (a better outlook/way of doing things.) Look at England, Japan and South Korea during the world cup - they all hired foreingers to coach their teams. It can be easier for an outsider to be more objective, and they are more likely to suggest change. The "way of doing things" isn't sacred to them, and they are likely to suggest, even insist, on alternatives.
Yes, the "outsider" also has his or her biases. That's where a consensus can be useful.
Japan has been inviting foreign ALTs into its classrooms for about 15 years or so. The Mombushou (sp it's been a while) MUST know about the problems in the school, even if they pretend nothing is wrong. Surely clashes like this are inevitable (and I, myself had had many that were less dramatic but similar in nature.) This is an inevitable step in the evolution of Japan's education system.
I'd love to read what sociologists, etc will have to say on this topic 100 years or so from now. I wonder if I'm not too far off the mark this time....
But smooj is right. This isn't going to change in one lesson. And I'm afraid that unless he already has a lot of experience teaching large, low level classes of questionable motivation, the poor teacher just won't know what to do. I didn't go the BEd route to escape that very fate as a teacher. I envy no one who follows that path. |
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Twisting in the Wind
Joined: 20 Oct 2003
Posts: 571
Location: Purgatory
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| Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2003 8:08 am Post subject: Re: Respect begins with self-respect |
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| johnslat wrote: |
R-E-S-P-E-C-T
How do you get it? Well, I don't think it's by doing what that teacher did. - 1. You have to have a lot of self-confidence when you first walk into that classroom; if you do, it'll "transmit" itself to the students. You have to give the impression of being totally at ease and relaxed ( even, or especially, if you're not ). You have to "project" the impression that, while you're a nice guy/gal, you absolutely will NOT tolerate any c r a p. I think you also have to "lay down the law" on Day I, and tell the students how it's going to be in YOUR classroom. That old axiom: "Always start off hard; you can get easier later. But, if you start off easy, you'll never be able to enforce discipline" is, I'd say, pretty accurate. I'm not so sure anyone can specifically define how you inspire respect - it's ineffable. But I am sure that you can learn how to, if you don't automatically have it from the start.
Regards,
John |
I agree 100% with John Slattery's post. Any teacher who is driven to the point of having to demand respect from his students will not get it that way. Do you respect someone who must demand respect in order to get any?
These students, if the post descriptions were accurate, do not sound much different from normal teenagers of whatever nationality. I think the fact that they were Japanese is beside the point. Thinking back to my own angst-ridden teenage years, I had several teachers who felt they must lecture on respect, jump around, scream and shout in order to get the students to respect them. This had the opposite effect. As another poster observed, when faced with this the students look at the floor and pretend to be contrite, but then laugh at the teacher at lunchtime. We certainly knew that this teacher was a major loser in our books, and we mentally tallied off another notch in our belts: another teacher down, teacher: zip, students 1. Hurray!!!
When I walk into my classroom, I own that classroom and all in it. All is mine, mine, mine. I act like the owner, so I am perceived as the owner by the students. I have self-respect and I am likewise treated with respect. Act like you are in charge and you will be perceived as in charge. Act important, and you are important. Students, particularly teenagers are like packs of wild dogs. They smell blood. They smell weakness, and will exploit that weakness for their own amusement. So, don't show any. Teaching is a performance art, much like acting, selling used cars, or being a televangelist. You can have taken all the education classes in the world and have every ESL certificate on the planet, but unless you can sell yourself to the students, you probably won't get very far. |
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Twisting in the Wind
Joined: 20 Oct 2003
Posts: 571
Location: Purgatory
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| Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2003 8:11 am Post subject: Re: Respect begins with self-respect |
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| johnslat wrote: |
R-E-S-P-E-C-T
How do you get it? Well, I don't think it's by doing what that teacher did. - 1. You have to have a lot of self-confidence when you first walk into that classroom; if you do, it'll "transmit" itself to the students. You have to give the impression of being totally at ease and relaxed ( even, or especially, if you're not ). You have to "project" the impression that, while you're a nice guy/gal, you absolutely will NOT tolerate any c r a p. I think you also have to "lay down the law" on Day I, and tell the students how it's going to be in YOUR classroom. That old axiom: "Always start off hard; you can get easier later. But, if you start off easy, you'll never be able to enforce discipline" is, I'd say, pretty accurate. I'm not so sure anyone can specifically define how you inspire respect - it's ineffable. But I am sure that you can learn how to, if you don't automatically have it from the start.
Regards,
John |
I agree 100% with John Slattery's post. Any teacher who is driven to the point of having to demand respect from his students will not get it that way. Do you respect someone who must demand respect in order to get any?
These students, if the post descriptions were accurate, do not sound much different from normal teenagers of whatever nationality. I think the fact that they were Japanese is beside the point. Thinking back to my own angst-ridden teenage years, I had several teachers who felt they must lecture on respect, jump around, scream and shout in order to get the students to respect them. This had the opposite effect. As another poster observed, when faced with this the students look at the floor and pretend to be contrite, but then laugh at the teacher at lunchtime. We certainly knew that this teacher was a major loser in our books, and we mentally tallied off another notch in our belts: another teacher down, teacher: zip, students 1. Hurray!!!
When I walk into my classroom, I own that classroom and all in it. All is mine, mine, mine. I act like the owner, so I am perceived as the owner by the students. I have self-respect and I am likewise treated with respect. Act like you are in charge and you will be perceived as in charge. Act important, and you are important. Students, particularly teenagers are like packs of wild dogs. They smell blood. They smell weakness, and will exploit that weakness for their own amusement. So, don't show any. Teaching is a performance art, much like acting, selling used cars, or being a televangelist. You can have taken all the education classes in the world and have every ESL certificate on the planet, but unless you can sell yourself to the students, you probably won't get very far. |
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cheryl
Joined: 01 Apr 2003
Posts: 119
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2003 11:27 am Post subject: |
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Everyone: I don't want to assume anything about whether Kumanoki's strategy was successful or not. I'll ask Kumanoki about it. Unlike a lot of JET's, i don't spend all day on the internet. (Am i bitter about it? Why yes, yes i am. I hate the stereotype of JET's being lazy and doing nothing, but that's a whole separate thread!)
Smooje:
| Quote: |
| The System is too big for one to change it in one lesson. If he had understood this, he would have adopted some alternative approaches. |
let's not use big sweeping generalizations to make a point. He didn't try to change the "system". The students were misbehaving and/or disrespecting him not "the system", although, one can say that it certainly sounded systemic! (HA!) I know, i need to go to bed now...
| Quote: |
| What he did could have, as others have mentioned, seriously isolated him not only from the students but perhaps more importantly from the other teachers. Goodness knows what it did for the reputation of foreign teachers at that school too. I pity whoever comes after him... |
I understand that this is your opinion and great for you for having it but...you're presuming to know the outcome of this teachers actions. We still don't know whether what he did helped him or not. What if the reputation of foreign teachers changed from "gaijin" to "sensei" with all the respect those terms carry?
Please don't feel as though i'm picking on you. It was just that your post was the only one that made me say, "oh no no no no no". |
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Roger
Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 9138
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| Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2003 12:09 pm Post subject: |
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I am amazed that so many fellow teachers could round on one of their own...
Why can't we take it for granted that as guests, we enjoy a modicum of respect too??? Why are Asian boors exonerated of any responsability for their abnormal and antisocial behaviour? Ah, bedcause WE are the outsiders, not them!
It seems to be widely ignored that parents have the key to how their progeny behaves; unfortuantely, today's parents only want their own peace of mind at Society's expense - the schools have to teach manners too. |
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shmooj
Joined: 11 Sep 2003
Posts: 1758
Location: Seoul, ROK
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| Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2003 3:28 pm Post subject: |
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| cheryl wrote: |
Everyone: I don't want to assume anything about whether Kumanoki's strategy was successful or not. I'll ask Kumanoki about it. Unlike a lot of JET's, i don't spend all day on the internet. (Am i bitter about it? Why yes, yes i am. I hate the stereotype of JET's being lazy and doing nothing, but that's a whole separate thread!)
Smooje:
| Quote: |
| The System is too big for one to change it in one lesson. If he had understood this, he would have adopted some alternative approaches. |
let's not use big sweeping generalizations to make a point. He didn't try to change the "system". The students were misbehaving and/or disrespecting him not "the system", although, one can say that it certainly sounded systemic! (HA!) I know, i need to go to bed now...
| Quote: |
| What he did could have, as others have mentioned, seriously isolated him not only from the students but perhaps more importantly from the other teachers. Goodness knows what it did for the reputation of foreign teachers at that school too. I pity whoever comes after him... |
I understand that this is your opinion and great for you for having it but...you're presuming to know the outcome of this teachers actions. We still don't know whether what he did helped him or not. What if the reputation of foreign teachers changed from "gaijin" to "sensei" with all the respect those terms carry?
Please don't feel as though i'm picking on you. It was just that your post was the only one that made me say, "oh no no no no no". |
Thanks Cheryl, I needed that  |
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caesar
Joined: 30 Jun 2003
Posts: 24
Location: cyberspace
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| Posted: Sat Nov 01, 2003 5:04 am Post subject: |
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Shirts not tucked in indicates disrespect to the teacher?
This is pretty east-asia specific, I guess.
I don't care what my students wear - the girls wear miniskirts and flash me. Or see-through outfits. Whatever. Do I take it as disrespect? They might have a nose ring, a spiked hairdoo, sandals, or shorts. Why would the fashion of the year in any way say how they feel about their English teacher. Do they get up in the morning, look in their closet, and say "What will I wear to disrespect my English teacher today?"
You guys make me laugh. I'm just happy if the boys keep their hands out of the�r girlfriend's panties. But even if they do, I don't take it personally. |
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isabel
Joined: 07 Mar 2003
Posts: 510
Location: God's green earth
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| Posted: Sat Nov 01, 2003 6:50 am Post subject: |
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I find the histrionics of the teacher to be a bit much. Sounds like he was doing a Robin Williams impersonation of a teacher.
As for not bringing their lessons, last semester I was handing out new worksheets every day. I had to do the copying myself, and it was a pain. This semester I told the students that if they lost their worksheets, it would cost them 1000 won (about $.90 U.S.) per page. Some of the lessons are 18 pages. It is now 3/4 of the way through the semester and only one student has had to have new worksheets (I have about 90 students). Clearly they respect money.
I think that it is important for the students to be respectful, and my Korean students are. But they do misbehave, have their cell phones ring, etc. It works well to lay out the rules in advance, as someone noted. Confiscating one cell phone for a day is adequate to get the rest of them turned off for the rest of the semester.
Most students are not behaving badly out of disrespect for the teacher, they are doing so to impress their peers. A grandstanding teacher does not understand that the class in not about him or her, it is about the students. |
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fluffhead
Joined: 20 May 2003
Posts: 21
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| Posted: Sat Nov 01, 2003 8:18 am Post subject: |
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| What do I, as a seasoned teacher think? I think the teacher in the text is right barmy! Seriously, that guy (or gal) needs a vacation something hardcore! |
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MindTraveller
Joined: 13 Mar 2003
Posts: 89
Location: Oman
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| Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2003 1:07 pm Post subject: |
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For the first time in Arabia, I have a motivated class. I have no problems with respect.
For most of my unmotivated classes, where students are passed onto the next level because it would make them feel bad to fail..... and they end up at the higher levels and can't speak ANY English, but cheat their way through - well, those classes are he*)! Especially when there's 40+ in them.
However, I don't like teaching in the States at all because I can't handle the lack of respect teenagers exhibit. (Maybe I can't handle teenagers....) Teaching in the USA has been, for me, much more stressful than teaching overseas. Giving teachers respect is a family thing, IMHO. If a family is torn apart, a young person of any age will often not respect authority. And for me, that's the situation too often in the USA - but not here in Arabia.
Yes, I have sympathy for the teacher who demanded respect. Class problems are not always failures of teachers - often they're failures of the administration to back a consistent pattern of discipline. IMHO. |
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nomadder
Joined: 15 Feb 2003
Posts: 709
Location: Somewherebetweenhereandthere
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| Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2003 3:27 pm Post subject: |
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Welll one look at the name he chose for himself says all. A daikon is a very large white radish for those who didn`t know. I`d take out the a, o and n and put in a c. I think you get more respect if people like you.
Especially in Japan a good thing to do is to have someone else take some bad ones out of the class and discipline them in Japanese-for so many reasons.
Also rewards and very interesting lessons-go with more games etc as he mentioned. Work with and not against. You have to give respect to get it. |
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