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Kootvela
Joined: 22 Oct 2007
Posts: 513
Location: Lithuania
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 Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 12:12 pm Post subject: |
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I have just taken my IH cert. binder and counted the teaching practice hours that I had to do: 2 hours unobserved teaching, then observed teaching practice total 420 minutes. If dividing by 60, that gives 7 hours. (corect me if I'm wrong, I'm a philologist  ).
Next, my teacher trainer has been teaching for 13 years. She has gained her teacher trainer qualification abroad (I cannot tell now if that was UK or USA, sorry, never asked). From what she told me, until a teacher trainer gets the licence, one has to do a number of cert. courses with an experienced trainer who would observe and supervise.
As for external evaluation, I don't think it is necessary when the teacher trainer is qualified. It never would give any transparency, trust me, I have seen how language courses are being evaluated by HQ sent people- they get wined and dined (as I have seen posted by some other fellow somewhere on this forum) and go back saying no problem when I myself compiled a list of 17. |
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arioch36
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 3589
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| Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 12:55 pm Post subject: |
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i don't know how the Cert courses or you are wording it, but 40-50 minutes is a teaching hour 
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| As for external evaluation, I don't think it is necessary when the teacher trainer is qualified. It never would give any transparency, trust me, I have seen how language courses are being evaluated by HQ sent people- they get wined and dined |
You are on the money. It becomes a little game, but, for those in the evaluation role, it is a great chance to travel, eat good, party and get some good per diem. So if I had such a job I would disagree with you voraciously. |
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Kootvela
Joined: 22 Oct 2007
Posts: 513
Location: Lithuania
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| Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 3:41 pm Post subject: |
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Teaching hour at IH Vilnius is 60 minutes. Boo-hoo  . If I broke those 420minutes into 45minute session, there would be more teaching hours than 7. So I say IH cert. had enough teaching practice, plus, I have been teaching before the cert. anway.
I would also like to get an evaluator's job, agreed |
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Justin Trullinger
Joined: 28 Jan 2005
Posts: 3110
Location: Seoul, South Korea and Myanmar for a bit
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| Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 5:17 pm Post subject: |
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For the purposes of qualifications, most courses consider an hour to be 60 minutes. For the purposes of teaching, this is also true in many places. Heck, some of us just couldn't handle different lengths of hours.
Gotta disagree about the role of an evaluator. One, if a teacher trainer is qualified, it doesn't imply that all course facilities, course materials, course organisation, etc, are up to scratch. An evaluator can check these things. Two, though I imagine some assessors get wined, dined and whatever; remember, they work for the accrediting organisation, not the host site. (Meaning that when I offer the SIT TESOL cert, the assessor who comes here works for SIT, not for me.) And remember that all participants have access to complaints procedure material that allows them to contact SIT direct if they for any reason feel like doing so. So an assessor who turned a blind eye to some negative on the course, as a result of some "invitations" from me, would be likely to wind up unemployed before long. (An assessor who fails to notice serious issues would be caught in no time.)
I'm a little confused, Kootvela, about your practice teaching- your trainer said it was less than CELTA, right? But the 7 hours observed you're reporting would meet CELTA minimums with an hour to spare. You were actually teaching for 7 hours, with a trainer watching you? DOn't know what that's about....
Best,
Justin
PS- I'm not picking on you, Koot- but I wonder what other veterans out there think about the pre-cert teaching hours. As a potential employer, they wouldn't really count for much with me. No offense, but anyplace you taught before the cert was a place that would hire you without qualifications. So I have no idea whether you got good professional development, peer observation, bad habits, any materials...experience before any qual is just a little suspect to me.
PPS- Just re-reading what I wrote. Think I'm rambling. Summary on assessing: Assessing may not always help to improve the quality of a course, but on a good course, at a reputable center, it will. And an accrediting organisation should insist on it. If you're saying that at your center, it wouldn't have, then I'm say, guess it's not the right center... |
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arioch36
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 3589
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| Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 7:06 am Post subject: |
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Justin
| Quote: |
| For the purposes of qualifications, most courses consider an hour to be 60 minutes. For the purposes of teaching, this is also true in many places |
Not sure if we are confusing terms. For me, it is important to clarify "teaching hours". Some schools try to cheat you. The standard in every country I know is that a teaching hour (or if we are referring to students, terms such as credits)... a teaching hour is never 60 minutes of actual teaching, but is the actual minutes of teaching plus break time. i have had school try to trick me or others ... 16 hours ... actually to be 22 class periods
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| Two, though I imagine some assessors get wined, dined and whatever; remember, they work for the accrediting organisation, not the host site |
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this is why they would get wined and dined. I'm not sure if I totally agree with Kootvela. Sometimes it happens. More often all get together for dinner for companionship. If you go to some other city to evaluate, who do you have dinner with? Actually, some of the best evaluation comes during lunch/dinner. No papers to look at, just opinions to share.
I have been an evaluator in two roles, Air Force, and CPR, American Red Cross. Sometimes you comment on a TRAINERS actual performance. Rarely. More often, it is all a paperwork game... making sure the "t"'s are crossed.
I became an instructor for the Airforce Airman Leadership school (40 hours of observed teaching, including co teaching). Sometimes the trainers had some helpful comment, usually a pet notion they would repeat many times ( I guess i am the same), and do everything possible to make sure you pass. The evaluators the same. Complaints almost always were from the pathetic who were disgruntled at having been critiqued. But as long as the "t"'s are all crossed ... Maybe CELTA is different.
teaching is like any other job. Someone can give you pointers, but you only learn by doing. I'm with the Air Force, this really takes about 40 hours of actual teaching, with actual students in a real school environment. This is just to start learning how to teach, unless of course you are a born natural
Taking a cert course in the States doesn't count didly when going to China, but it may give you a refresher on english language usage
PS, I do think Evaluation of sites is neccessary, it's part of the system. But it is also a game, and a fun game if you are an evaluaor who likes to travel |
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Kootvela
Joined: 22 Oct 2007
Posts: 513
Location: Lithuania
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| Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 7:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Justin Trullinger wrote: |
I'm a little confused, Kootvela, about your practice teaching- your trainer said it was less than CELTA, right? But the 7 hours observed you're reporting would meet CELTA minimums with an hour to spare. You were actually teaching for 7 hours, with a trainer watching you? DOn't know what that's about.... |
That's right, 7 hours of observed practice with peer and tutor feedback. I just reported what my teacher trainer said about the hours, maybe sho got mixed up, don't know, sory.
| Justin Trullinger wrote: |
PS- I'm not picking on you, Koot- but I wonder what other veterans out there think about the pre-cert teaching hours. As a potential employer, they wouldn't really count for much with me. No offense, but anyplace you taught before the cert was a place that would hire you without qualifications. So I have no idea whether you got good professional development, peer observation, bad habits, any materials...experience before any qual is just a little suspect to me.
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I taught before at a state school and believe me they do ask for qualifications. Now it's Masters degree that they want. I also graduated from a pedagogical university, so I've got all that counts in terms of professional development. Heck, I spent there 6 years! |
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fluffyhamster
Joined: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 3292
Location: UK > China > Japan > UK again
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| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 12:23 pm Post subject: |
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Arioch, the issue of what a "teaching hour" means is a non-issue, mainly because I'm pretty sure that it the phrasing is more like '(n) hours of observed teaching practice (with real ESL students)' (and Kootvela did say 'teaching practice hours', which is hardly that ambiguous, and more or less the same thing as I'm also now saying).
Justin, what sort of complaints are usually made about training courses? I've gotten the impression that it's mainly 'Why can't I have an A grade' rather than 'Blimey, my lessons won't be half like these trainers' ones' (meaning 1) 'There is still a lot to learn, that wasn't taught or didn't get a look-in', and as a corollary, 2) 'I will naturally diverge from these dictats as soon as I feel I need to, which is likely to be ASAP actually!'). |
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Justin Trullinger
Joined: 28 Jan 2005
Posts: 3110
Location: Seoul, South Korea and Myanmar for a bit
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| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 7:53 pm Post subject: |
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Hi everybody-
quick response:
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| The standard in every country I know is that a teaching hour (or if we are referring to students, terms such as credits)... a teaching hour is never 60 minutes of actual teaching, |
Simply put, we don't know the same countries then. I've taught in Spain, Italy, and Ecuador, and all my teachers hours have been 60 minutes.
In any case- the standard on CELTA, Trinity, and SIT's courses is 6 hours (clock hours) of observed teaching practice minimum. As on the course, first sessions are usually less than an hour, simply total. 360 minutes is the minimum on those courses.
In response to Mr Hamster (sorry, couldn't resist):
| Quote: |
| Justin, what sort of complaints are usually made about training courses? |
We've been fortunate to have a great bunch of participants so far, and haven't really had any serious complaints. Still, a few minor ones come up every now and then:
Lack of computer access in the center. (The darn things are so expensive here...anyway, we're getting a couple more, and maybe wireless, for the next course.)
Too much work. (No comment.)
Too much pressure. (same)
Sometimes issues about the job market, which isn't really our thing, but...
Sometimes queries about the validity or usefulness of certain assignments, activities, or evaluations.
One complaint that, when excited about things, I use too much profanity.
All in all, stuff we can learn from, and improve the course based on (I am trying to swear less  ), but nothing, in my opinion and participants', that would seriously hinder their learning on the course.
What I really meant, though, is that if there were a serious complaint (unprofessionalism on the part of a trainer, say, or the fact that a trainer wasn't as experienced as they were told, falsification of practice teaching hours, a lack of real EFL students, whatever) the assessor would pretty much have to report it to SIT, regardless of who paid for what kind of dinner. So in that sense, assessing works; I have to admit that it can be fairly friendly- most SIT assessors are SIT trainers that I know from the discussion boards and the listserves, and it's nice to meet them. Nonetheless, if there were serious issues seriously affecting the quality of the course offered to our participants, they would report them to SIT. Even if they wanted to do me a favor, they'd be afraid to- because if the disgruntled participant contacted SIT, the assessor would have a very hard time explaining how they "hadn't noticed" a major issue. And then the "cushy job" would be over.
I agree, half way, with Kootvela's comment that assessing shouldn't be necessary if trainers are all qualified- but that's how you know they're qualified. My experience with EFL in general is that many, though not all, centers meet only the standards that they really HAVE to. (Some not even those, but that's a different category. If there is nobody externally checking to see if trainers are qualified, no accrediting organisation that requires it and checks, then sooner or later, some centers are going to cut corners. And you'll have circumstances like one I know of in Latin America, of a good participant on one course being hired as a cert trainer on the very next course. (It wasn't a big name cert. But it is shocking.)
Best,
Justin
Best,
Justin |
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fluffyhamster
Joined: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 3292
Location: UK > China > Japan > UK again
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| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 9:24 pm Post subject: |
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So, if you'd like to swear your *beeping* *beeps* off in class, try the new improved SIT (Struttergear "Intensive" Teaching) training. Available now from Trullinger (a Struttergear subsidiary). Order today!
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Justin Trullinger
Joined: 28 Jan 2005
Posts: 3110
Location: Seoul, South Korea and Myanmar for a bit
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| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 9:33 pm Post subject: |
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I didn't fully understand that, so I'm gonna take it as a compliment.
Thank you!
Justin |
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fluffyhamster
Joined: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 3292
Location: UK > China > Japan > UK again
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| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 11:09 pm Post subject: |
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O-m-G!!! You don't know Mike Strutter, 'busy international lawyer'?! 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsP2TWnKnhU (Original Strutter)
http://www.struttergear.com/STRUTTERGEARS.htm (Newer products)
He hasn't actually branched out into ESOL TT yet (that was my imagination running wild), but it's only a matter of time...
Apologies if this is all a bit too crude for some. 
Unfortunately a lot of MS clips have been removed from YouTube recently. I loved the Handsome Coke Sniper one! |
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