Job Discussion Forums

[bnix]

Wow.Mr.Doors.Catchy handle,that.Oh,well
No,my time in Saudi did not render me permanently cynical.You and Ann have the right to your opinions,of course,including your opinions on my posts.I really don't care,you know?Why should I? Obviously,I do not expect everyone to agree with me.If Ann thinks I am arrogant(but of course SHE would never be 'judgmental",would she?)",and you think I am "cynical",hey those are your opinions.I do not expect to change them.I really don't care,you see.I I still have my opinions,too.Especially about people who are trying to "teach" with no qualifications.And how people like that attempt to rationalize their "right' to teach.

So,best of luck to both of you.I will continue to post and express my feelings.And of course,I am sure you will do the same.

[Kent F. Kruhoeffer]

Come on people, let's not forget the theme of the original post

First, I understand bnix. He's been in this field long enough to be fed up with all that's wrong in the world of ESL; the myriad of unqualified backpackers, the unprofessional conduct, and the poor image that results from that conduct, etc.

bnix; you do make valid points, but you may be just a tad "defensive" with some of your replies. Try to relax a little. I know you have the courage to stand up for what you believe, and I respect you for that. By the same token, having the wisdom and patience to accept the things and opinions you can't change ...is also a good quality.

This idea of mutual respect and acceptance of our differences...is exactly what I was trying to convey in my original post, so... thanks for letting me "butt in" here to get us back on-topic.

FromRussiaWithLove,
kent

[Ann]

bnix,
I apologize for seeming to be judgmental. However, I really think you need to remove yourself (not physically) from the field because you've become jaded.
As I mentioned before: your posts don't say anything people don't know already. And if there are bad teachers entering the field, so be it. I don't recall that ESL was a field that required some policing.
Your remarks are quite uncalled for, and I think you could actually post something positive about ESL rather than constantly droning on about the state of the field. You are not discouraging bad teachers to join the field, you are discouraging anyone who wants to join.
Again, keep your jaded opinions (sure you're free to have them in the first place), but spare us the cynicism.
We sure could use some positivity around here. Sheesh!

[bnix]

Ann,
Well,I certainly agree(again) that you are entitled to your opinions ,but when you make remarks like"your remarks(mine) are uncalled for"...of course,that is only your opinion,although of course you are entitled to it.

The TESOL field definitely needs some regulation.I will not use the term you used "policing"...because I know that calls up unpleasant connotations.It definitely needs some regulation ,though.

And although you consider me jaded,I would call it realistic.A postive comment...there are some professionals in this field(thank GOD!) It encourages me when I read posts by people like Glenski and some of the others.

Of course,if my posts really bother you,maybe you should not read them.Or read them if you want to...I am not trying to tell you what to do.I see your points and appreciate your comments.I am certainly not pretending that I have any magic answers.Anyway,have a good day.

[dduck]

[bnix]

Your views sound anti-globalization to me(I am not saying that is bad or good,either way).

I am not an economist and I have no idea if any proposed ESL regulation would impact poorer countries negatively.I kind of doubt it(just my feeling).After all,we are talking about TESOL ,not something like importing automobiles or something like that.But,I don't know.Maybe you do have a point there.I still think we need some regulation in the TESOL industry.And yes,to put it bluntly,one reason is the need to remove the "backpacker" element,although there are other reasons,too.

I do not think any of us should get too excited, though,because I really do not anticipate any kind of regulation,at least not in the near future.Things will probably just keep floundering on as usual, perhaps worsening to some extent,as more unemployables and undesirables decide to "teach".

[Roger]

Dduck,

'what's wrong with market forces, anyway...?", dduck, you are looking at the phenomenon the wrong way! It is NOT market forces that dictate the hiring of backpackers at all!
IT is a prestige thing, and as you perhaps know when prestige comes into the equation market forces get cancelled out.

Teaching is still highly regulated as it is a government activity. I am talking about schools and universities, of course. For them to hire a foreign national is brewaking with some rigorously-enforced rules - can you imagine teaching history in a foreign country??? Teaching a foreign tongue, perhaps? But this is not so common as many think. It is a trend that the English-speaking world has introduced courtesy of its myth of "native-speaking English teachers are best".
This can readily be seen here in China, and possibly elsewhere in East Asia (Taiwan, Korea and Japan.).
IT is a government decree, pure and simple, that opened local schools to outsiders.
The McDonald's training centres are jumping on the same bandwagon for commercial reasons only that have much to do with prestige again.

Were it not for a strong central government, there would be market forces offering a level playfield. But such market-forces don't exist because ther government makes and enforces the rules.
That is why you see native-English speaking backpackers.

[dduck]

Let's see it I can sumarise your comments:

You have observed a trend in Asian countries where native speakers are granted a higher level of prestige than previously afforded. Amongst this influx of native speakers you've noticed McDonalds style schools and large numbers of backpackers. You think the Asian governments are responsible for dumbing down of language education, by allowing these clones and clowns into the country.

Have I understood you properly?

My original comment tried to address the problem of trying to regulate the TESOL industry, especially considering how many countries, cultures, political and economic forces involved.

Personally, I try to surf the wave rather than try to turn back the sea.

Iain

[arioch36]

I don't see Bnixxy as jaded, just tired of seeing inexcusable teaching.
I (not Bnix) have no problem with someone being a bad teacher..as long as they are working hard to improve, and take it seriously.
I have a far bigger problem with people who have been in this profession for a while and make the JUDGEMENT that noone should judge other people. What crock. We all judge. Some judge that everyone should be allowed to do their own thing. Quaint words. I would rather be attacked for being judgmental then say nothing when a teeacher is being unethical.
I think that as China makes more progress in being a country of law, and becomes better at being efficient, some of these problems will be addressed. But it is precisely the dedicated teachers who should cry oput against "schools" who have no standards and "teachers who have no standards, no work ethics. If not we, then who???
The bible says if the watchman cries the warning but the town doesn't listen, then the blood of the town people is on their own hands, but if the watchman says nothing, he also is guilty.
Teachers who care must constantly speak out, knowing that scum is something that we will always have, but if we don't fight it, it will engulf us.

Bnix, please police. Ann obviously won't! She would rather just turn aside as someone hits on their student, comes to class drunk, or comes to "teach" with absolutely no desire to do more then party in class.

(This is what you are saying. I'm not sure if I am convinced Doors is really a teacher. Hope I am being kinder and gentler, when appropriate)

[Ann]

Well, I am so glad that you can predict my actions sitting on your computer screen. Who knew the wonders of the web?

[itslatedoors]

I wouldn't worry about some of these posts.It just goes to show that after years of teaching and being the centre of attention some of these people are really up themselves.Good judgement is like good wine,reserved.I can't believe some of the ranting that goes on at Dave's. On your travels,choose your friends carefully,develop your teaching style and knowledege and watch out for the fundamentalist 'tefl taliban'.

[itslatedoors]

"I'm not sure Doors is really a teacher."CELTA,BA,9 years exp,British Council,IH,Arels,lecturer in Poland and 3 other countries,General,ESP,Business,Military,Legal,TOEFL,IELTS,Arels,adults,teenagers,young learners,teacher trainer,experience in course and materials design,CALL,testing,several senior postions and published.No I can't really be a teacher can I?You sound a bit self righteous to me a la bnix variety.As for Ann and the policing comment,other people ie the DOS,Centre Manager and ADOS are paid to police their staff as that is a part of their job.The moment peers of equal rank start dobbing in their colleagues,especially in this profession is the day trust and teamwork,essential in the running of any school,disappear.People should encourage and support each other rather than polarize the staff room.I hope you,bnix and others of your ilk don't voice your opinions as thoughtlessly in class because in some countries you'd lose your job in a flash.Smart arses,(yep I'm a Brit),don't last long out here in the Middle East.

[arioch36]

Exactly my point, Doors, we are all self-righteous, you me , Ann, Bnix etc. We are all judgmental. One can judge that it ia all okay. But for evil to prevail, it only requires good men to do nothing.
I can't judge who is good, I don't know any of you. I'm often not good. But I won't do nothing, and I won't say doing wrong is right. Peers should judge peers.
So, in my last post I was trying to teach something. See how upset we get when other people treat us the way we treat them??? The same judgement you make of me, you are upset when i make it of you.

Personally I find people they won't "judge", unhealthy. I hate rationialization. Sometimes judgements are wrong...but when people don't accept their responsibility to make judgments, bad things happen. I am not sure if i agree with france about Iraq, but at least they made a judgment, and now things can be discussed in the light of day. When we don't make judgments we tend to hide bad deeds in the dark where they fester and grow until the problem explodes.

Ann I would guess you are a fine person, honestly. And Doors, who I listened too much as a youth, I win't hold all your qualifications against you, and will believe despite them you are a good teacher. Again, we are all self-righteous, we all think we are just a little better then the next person, etc.

[Kent F. Kruhoeffer]

Dear Forum,

Yes, Arioch36 is right. We all make judgements, and that is a healthy thing, no doubt whatsoever.

My original point, waaaaay back in the very first post which I started is simply this. It's perfectly fine to make judgements, debate, even argue about topics. It's "how" we debate that matters to me.

We, more than others, and as teachers of the English language, have a sacred obligation to choose our words carefully. They are the tools with which we earn our livings, for God's sake. My original complaint (long forgotten by now) is that some of us resort to "bashing" and insulting each other, instead of pursuing the real goal. If this were a forum for long-haul truck drivers or professional wrestlers ... I'd understand the bashing, insults, personal attacks and mean-spirited nature of some of the posts.

So...what is the real goal? Well...that's up to the individual, and depends obviously on the particular thread in question.

As I've said before, I disagree with people on a daily basis, but I have the skill to do it diplomatically; to choose words that defend my position; to offer facts and illustrations when necessary, and above all...to refrain from making personal attacks, which only makes my argument look weaker.

Regards,
Kent

[itslatedoors]

The point I made is that people in the hierarchy of the MANAGEMENT are paid to judge their employees.Companies are rarely domocracies where all employees get together on an issue and vote about it so why do we often feel free to be so subjective,when all the effects do is cause bad feeling.In an ideal world we ,like the misanthrope,could all bare our souls and jump on one side of the fence rather than sitting on it and everyone would sort their problems out.But,we as teachers are not paid to do that.As such don't you think that the time and energy spent dwelling on the perceived weaknesses of others could be better used constructively, helping yourself and other interested teachers reach their potential.In my personal experience ,many a staff room has been ruined by hearsay and bad judgement.Of course we all have the right to make judgements about things and people but some thoughts are better kept inside.Tact is more prevalant in some cultures and in reality, discretion is often the better part of valour.This is not cowardice but a moral choice to respect other people,who are ,of course,different and will have different goals.As an after thought someone mentioned the French and Iraq situation.The irony of America's ignorant stance on Palestine is not lost here in the Middle. East.