Job Discussion Forums

[Phil_K]

One of the problems when you have been here a long time is confusing the languages (I think this has been mentioned before). At the weekend I mentioned something about "doing a traduction" !!!!

[MELEE]

I recently found a cool lesson on the passive--I wish I could say I created it, but alas, I didn't. It's all about ebay. My students (a mix of computer engineering and business majors) enjoyed it and seemed to see when it would be natural for us to use the passive and when it would be natural to use the active (which I think is the point of teaching grammar).

Notamiss, I find it useful to continously point out to my students that English and Spanish are independant languages, one is not a traslation of the other, so they don't match up.

[mapache]

I never understood why Mexicans have succh trouble with present continuous. For me, it's the same as Spanish (yo estoy hablano). When one of my students told me this is one of the hardest things to learn in English, I asked why in amazement. I finally understood, however, when he explained Mexicans do not use present continuous like in English. They say, 'que haces" instead of "que esta haciendo"

[MO39]

[kingkristopher]

Hi,

I'm not in Mexico, but I teach Latinos here in Panama. I have endless problems getting my students to understand the Past Perfect. I have no idea why. The Past Perfect is the same in Spanish as it is in English (though I don't rely on that to teach it). I have spoken to other teachers here and they have the same problem. I've also had this problem in Venezuela and Ecuador, leading me to believe either I simply can't teach the Past Perfect or Latinos simply can't understand it (neither of which is a satisfactory answer, though Spaniards and Chinese students have picked it up easily). Anyway, any tips on teaching it?

As for the Passive Voice, in addition to some of the other ideas already mentioned, I like to rearrange the classroom before students get there. Knock over the wastepaper basket, take the clock/pictures off the wall, reorganise the desks, write something (preferably in a foreign or indistinguishable language) on the board, leave something conspicuos (like a watch/cellphone,) in an obvious place, etc. Then when the students come in to the class we focus on what was done to the room rather than who did it since, ostensibly at least, they do not know who performed the actions. This has helped me practice both the structure and natural usage of the passive.

[TheLongWayHome]

[kingkristopher]

Nope, the past perfect is used here to the same extent it is used in American English. For example they might say (as Americans do): "Cuando llegue al banco me di cuenta que no traje mi billetera." Translation: "When I got to the bank I realised I forgot to bring my wallet." Of course, in Canada we would use the past perfect there (...I realised I had forgotten...), so although this would be incorrect by my standards it is consistent with American usage at least.

Additionally, I've found that latinos even use the past perfect where we would not, that is to say that they use it MORE than we do. Example: (upon entering a room) "Hola Kristopher, no te habia visto" translation, "I hadn't seen you". Where I'm from we'd simply say "I didn't see you there".

So I really don't think it's a situation as with the passive where another structure substitutes. They use the Past Perfect a lot in Spanish. Also, as I mentioned, Spaniards don't seem to have any problem getting it. Have you seen this problem in Mexico? And any tips for teaching it? I've racked my brain...

[mapache]

[TheLongWayHome]

[MELEE]

I think these tenses are difficult for our students, not because of any linguistical contrast with Spanish, but because they represent expressing appropriate nuance to the language at a level beyond "Limited User" of the language. A move to an "Independent User" level (COE levels B1 to B2) is a very hard step to make and really requires that the student put many hours a week (more than 7 as a minimum) into language study. Most students in an EFL context aren't doing that, so while can understand the forms of compound verbs structures, will struggle to find the correct usage.

[TheLongWayHome]

I think these tenses are difficult because teachers and coursebooks/exams still insist that one item of grammar is somehow harder than another and so order them in a manner that is both illogical and confusing.

Ever have students in 'advanced' levels that can't do so called 'basic' grammar? Only if you see it that way. It's like when English speakers learn Spanish. They come across the subjunctive and suddenly start running backwards to avoid it, claiming that it requires years of study and memorisation then spend years stuck in intermediate because they have this psychological block.

English coursebooks create the same block at around intermediate. I used to work with a teacher (not a native speaker) that was passionate about teaching the past perfect at elementary level, claiming they couldn't write good stories without it. He was poo-pooed by the know-it-alls of course but he showed me their writing and they were really using it well - not bad for 'limited users'.

[notamiss]

Speaking of psychological blocks, what about the present perfect? I've seen English learners thrown into permanent confusion because they can't get over the fact that a past tense has "present" in its name.

I think they might have found it easier to grasp if their teachers had put more emphasis on the analogy with the pret�rito perfecto in Spanish and de-emphasized the English name of the tense with its confusing "present" label. Or am I off-base here?

[kingkristopher]

Hey Notamiss,

I've noticed the same block with the Present Perfect and so I did EXACTLY what you suggested. I started calling it the Preterite Perfect (though that's not what it's called in English) and the students have had a much easier time grasping it ever since. Seems you're not off base at all.

Cheers

[MELEE]

But many times it is a present tense.

I've lived here for ten years. (I live here now)
I haven't done my homework yet. (at this moment it's not done.)

[MO39]