Job Discussion Forums

[Cleopatra]

I saw that article too, John.

Like we said before, it all smacks a bit of 'shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted'. It's going to take a bit more than some imam or other condemming 'terrorism' to put an end to the whole mess.

[johnslat]

Here's another (I'd say) VERY good article, by a guy named Amir Taheri.
And, unless I'm recalling incorrectly, I believe he contributes a regular weekly column to the Arab News. Yup, it's him; I just went to the Arab News site and checked. I always liked his articles when I read him over in Riyadh, too.

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/15/opinion/15TAHE.html?pagewanted=2&th

And heck, while I'm at it, here's Nicholas Kristof's piece on Afghanistan and Iraq (warning: it contains a multiple-choice quiz - I'm proud to say I scored 100%; being a skeptic helped.):

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/15/opinion/15KRIS.html?th

Regards,
John

[Cleopatra]

Anybody see the article in yesterday's New York Times about 'reform' in the Kingdom?
it said that some high ranking sheikh or other was on TV saying that it was wrong to overthrow governments unless they had obviously breached Islamic law. It also sadi that Saudis should not tgo and join the 'jihad' in Iraq. Don't know about you, but that doesn't sound too much like 'reform' to me: more like self-defence and desperation. I'm sure 90% of Saudis will see right through it too.
I was also interested to read in the same article that some other sheich had said that music, contrary to what the "Wahabbis" say, is actuallly OK, and might even be a spiritual aid!
It's very interesting to watch the whole thing unfold, but the same question comes back to me all the time: is it far too little, far too late?

[johnslat]

Dear Cleopatra,
Saw it - here are a couple of links:

http://www.arabnews.com/?page=7&section=0&article=35270&d=19&m=11&y=2003

http://www.arabnews.com/?page=1&section=0&article=35473&d=23&m=11&y=2003

You have to wonder, don't you, just how the Sheikh arrived at his "decision" to "recant"? Hmm, was there any "external pressure" applied or did he suddenly have a "on the road to Damascus" experience?
Call me skeptical, but I suspect it was the former. Sure the governement's scared, and sure - most, maybe all Saudis, see through this "reform". But I'd say it's still better than nothing. The question, though, as you wrote, remains: Too little, too late?
Regards,
John

[ohman]

John,

Wouldn't external pressure indicate that the prevailing winds favor
change? No matter how insignificant these changes might be in the short run, there is still that indication of a "willingness" to reform--inshaillah, sooner or later.
I'm curious to know what the gyst of the Friday sermons are. Are they completely apolitical now?

[guest of Japan]

I also read that article and found it to be quite interesting. Certainly I don't have the insider perspective that you folks have, but I sensed a lot of paradox in the reforms.

For example, the press is becoming more liberal and free but to protest has become a sin. I find it more than disheartening to see a state manipulate the interpretation of a religion so support a system clearly in decay.

It was also interesting tho note that many of the younger princes also viewed the reforms to be too slow. If I look at it optimistically then it appears that the younger princes are more in touch with the society they reside above. If I look at it realistically, then I see frustrated princes that want to share in the spoils of power held by the old folks. But along with that I sense that they feel their opportunity to gain that power is to ride and maybe lead the populist uprising swelling under their feet.

As the fall of the Soviet Union has taught us, granting limited freedoms will only lead to a growing disire for more and a more capable voice of the repressed to demand it. Freedom once given is difficult to take away. In my opinion the too little too late argument is a feeble one because it will always be too little too late. It may be hot in Saudi, but a snowball is still going to form and gather onto itself. The only real question in my mind is whether the change will be peaceful or bloody.

[johnslat]

Dear guest of Japan,
You could well be right in thinking that the younger generation of the Royal Family is being "opportunistic" about the current situation. However, it's probably good to keep in mind that most of these younger guys had a very different upbringing from that of their parents. Most of them:
1. have had a lot more "education" than their parents
2. got that "education" in the "West" and spent a fair amount of time there
3. have, as a result, a "wider world-view" and are, I'd say, more comfortable with change and more "realistic" about the necessity for adapting to the modern world.
Moreover, the population in general, after over 10 years of satellite TV and about 6 years of the Net in the Kingdom, is also a lot less insular and hidebound than it used to be.
I don't see the "young princes" riding or leading a "populist uprising". But I do think that some of them might be in a position to "push" their elders in the direction of more substantial reforms. Too much, too fast is as bad as too little too late. It's going to be a tough course to plot and there are dangers on both sides - the "hold onto our traditions " conservatives and the "freedom now" liberals. Can the Kingdom steer a middle path between the two extremes? Your guess is as good as mine - but I'd say they have at least a decent chance of doing so.
Regards,
John

[guest of Japan]

Please forgive my pessimism John. I spent 4 years working at a very rich yacht club in NY and it caused me to view most rich people as power-hungry, greedy, selfish, and consumed by the desire for privilage and prestige. I do hope those young princes in Saudi are different.

[johnslat]

Dear guest of Japan,
Your pessimism may well be justified. I didn't get to meet too many of the youngish movers and shakers during my time there. However, the ones I did get to talk with impressed me quite a bit. They were intelligent, not self-important and seemed unusually competent. How many are like that, though, is anyone's guess,

[ohman]

[johnslat]

A link to what I think is an interesting article in this morning's (Nov. 27) N.Y. Times. Lots to deplore here, but also some hints of hope. Actually, the fact that there are journalists such as this in the Kingdom and newspapers willing to publish (in Arabic) what many do not want to read is, in itself, a hopeful sign.


http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/28/opinion/28MANS.html?th

Regards,
John

[Truth Hurts]

John

I suppose it's that 'support the underdog' complex I have or something along the line but I just have to ask why you seem to feel a burning urge to impress on everyone the evils of Wahabism not least in what is purportedly a Job Discussion forum.

I imagine it makes us all somehow feel emotionally secure or smug to point out the perceived failures of another culture particularly one in which we live and apparent loathe with alarming frequency (please see the enormous response to my 'sycophantic' Eid Mubarak post)

Well, here's a link to what I think is an interesting site that lots will deplore but gets scarcely mentioned in any open or objective manner in our media back home much less in the divinely inspired NY Times!

http://cageprisoners.com/

TH

[johnslat]

Dear Truth Hurts,
As you've probably noticed, I didn't start this thread, whose topic is the Wahhabis and the influence they have. And, if you've read many of my other posts, I believe you'd see that I am quite equally willing to write about what I regard as shortcomings/faults in my country (where I'm now residing), the USA. As for your Eid post, well, personally I sent Eid (and Ramadan) greetings to all my Muslim friends individually; I suspect there aren't too many Muslims who visit this web site. But if there are, none of them appear to have responded to your "sycophantic" ( But why do you call it that? Since there were no responses, it can't be a quote from another poster.) message. If your comment about loathing a country was meant for me, I assure you you're most mistaken. I spent 19 years in Saudi Arabia (nobody had a gun to my head), loved my job there and made some life-long friends among the locals. I feel very strong ties to the Kingdom and am highly concerned about its future. I wish it only the best, but I realize that it's going through and very difficult time, fraught with dangers. I happen to agree with what the journalist wrote, but I hope
that Saudi Arabia can make the changes that are necessary (in my opinion) to survive without violence and bloodshed. And I deplore, probably as much as you do, the actions of the present administration in Washington, D.C. in almost every area, but especially as regards the illegal and inhumane treatment the prisoners at Guantanamo are undergoing.
Regards,
John

[Truth Hurts]

John,

[johnslat]

Dear Truth Hurts,
I don't think that N.Y. Times piece was published in Al Riyadh; rather, I believe it was articles written before that, the ones that caused Mansour
to be sentenced to receive a whipping:

"I had been sentenced by a religious court because of articles I had written calling for freedom of speech and criticizing Wahhabism, Saudi Arabia's official religious doctrine."

Those, I'd say, were the ones published in Al Riyadh. As for real Saudis not making statements such as those you quoted, I've heard real Saudis say just about the same things. That's especially true of this quote:

"The real problem is that Saudi Arabia is bogged down by deep-rooted Islamic extremism in most schools and mosques, which have become breeding grounds for terrorists."

The Saudis I'm talking about were, admittedly, "Western-educated" colleagues (most of whom had been students of mine back in the early 80s) that I'd known for many years (their lack of discretion was often quite startling). And it's hard to ignore the examples of Osama himself, the fact that 15 0f the 19 WTC hijackers were Saudis and the many, more recent, instances of terrorist attacks and shoot-outs with the police, in which Saudis were involved. Part of the problem may be the high unemployment rate among young Saudi males. They're not only idle, their futures don't look so great anymore. From what I know, Mansour's charge of Islamic extremism being taught in the schools and preached in the mosques is largely true. On the othe hand, I also think that's beginning to change. But when I see that a journalist has been sentenced to be whipped for writing about that, it makes me more pessimistic about the Kingdom's future.
Regards,
John