Job Discussion Forums

[leeroy]

Don't get me wrong guys - I'm not suggesting that "sitting back and just letting the students chat" is a great way to teach! I wanted to look at this from the students' point of view rather than the teacher's - does the sheer process of forming language in a communicative environment "make their English better" - or must there be teacher intervention for improvements to be made?

[shmooj]

Leeroy, have you ever read that book about Task-Based learning by Jane Willis I think it is? Just wondered what you thought of it if you had.

Personally, I thought it was mostly restating the obvious with new terminology although there were some interesting activities in it.

[leeroy]

shmooj,

I referenced from it during my DELTA, well it was a Willis TBL book, anyway. And as Ellis stated, "A tasked based activity is, minimally, a task".

A lot of ELT Academia seems a bit like stating the obvious to me.

Affective filters, i+1, even a quite substantial proportion of the lexical approach - it all seems a bit like, "welll.... duh!" But sometimes we need to be told the obvious before we realise it's obvious, I suppose.

I like task-based activities, but usually do feedback post-task these days (from student emerging errors, a la Scott Thornbury).

[Tripmaster Monkey]

"A Pre-Intermediate class are set a task, whereby in groups of 5 they must evaluate the pros and cons of 4 potential mayoral candidates, then reach a decision together about who is the best one... "

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is a fairly standard ESL-fluency activity. In other words, we would do this when we have practiced related grammar, vocab, or some other related topic.

"No grammar, vocabulary or phonology is covered either before, during, or after the task."

Then there is no point. Or at least there appears not to be. Still, fluency can be a purpose in and of itself.


"All the teacher does is sit and wonder about what he's going to post on Dave's later... "

I know a lot of bad teachers, but i have yet to see someone who bases their teaching purely on the purpose of posting it here. I've never seen anyone say, "Hey, I taught a really horrible lesson, I wanted to tell you all about it here."

I believe that the simple answer is that this lesson does have its own value, just as many more structured lessons do. But it seems to me that every aspect(here, fluency) has its place.

If students can't do it without dictionaries, then it's too difficult (or they're intentionally hiding in dictionaries to avoid speaking).

Anyway, I sense here someone wanting to criticize someone else. With no idea about the whole situation, I can only rule that the activity is viable if it's used in a relevant way.

[leeroy]

Tripmaster, the point wasn't the activity specifically

I was merely wondering if you felt that any activity involving a group of students discussing things with each other was beneficial in itself - if the mere process of the students communicating in its singularity improved their English. I think the general consensus of opinion here is

"Yes, but to a limited extent."

It was a lesson I did, and though I did briefly consider if it was worth posting on Dave's mid-task, I spent most of my time noting down emerging errors (both grammatical and phonological) to cover post-task. I am an emerging error freak - I do it a lot with tasks. (I didn't mention that here, as I didn't consider that to be the point.)

As they were babbling away, I though to myself, "I wonder if them just talking like this causes improvements in fluency?" Hence, the post.

[Sherri]

leeroy, have a look at Diane Larsen-Freeman and Michael Long "An Introduction to Second Language Acquisition Research" 1991, Longman. It describes some interesting research done looking at the effects of formal instruction vs naturalistic learning of a second language--and there's more where that came from. It is interesting reading and fits your question rather well.

[lagger]

There is nothing wrong with concentrating on fluency rather than accuracy. Talking with my classmates at school is how I initially learnt Spanish and I didn't have people correcting me every five seconds (which would have made me clam up).

I think it's a good task but could be improved.

* Vocab before the discussion and perhaps a model/phrases on giving opinions/feedback.

*A better topic. Are mayoral candidates very fascinating?

*The teacher could walk around listening, perhaps join in a tiny bit to help direct it if the students are struggling.

*Bring the whole group together at the end and discuss the results.

I often let my students chat together, it gets them thinking and they relax more.