Job Discussion Forums

[manonatrain]

I agree Christians are and were a brutal group. Being in the ME is
like stepping back in time. Kissing cousins, tribal families, and Mullahs who hold more power than the government.

John S. is right on the history remark. All I do is agree with this guy, man I feel like we are dating...

[johnslat]

Dear manonatrain,
Sorry - I'm already spoken for. But I think I can provide you with something of a disagreement, anyway. You wrote:

"Christians are and were a brutal group . . ."

Well, in the first place, that's far, far too general for me; certainly some Christians have been and are brutal, but at least in my own experience, the ones I've known haven't been. Oh, some of those do have qualities and behaviors that I'm not so fond of, but brutality (so far) hasn't been one of them. And, in the second place, you specified "Christianity", whereas what I wrote was much more general:
"Religion - or perhaps I should say more accurately, the misapprehension of the message of religion - has inspired and does inspire some horrendous acts."
But, regarding Christianity (and the same could probably be said for most/all other religions), I rather like what G.K. Chesterton wrote:

"Christianity hasn't failed; it's just never been tried."

Regards,
John

[Truth Hurts]

Hmmm...

Allow me to apply some of that curious 'johnslatian' logic. In the last century it was the Christians that began world wars 1 and 2. It was the Christians with Vatican complicity that killed 6 million Jews. It was Orthodox Russian christians that carried out pogroms on hundreds of thousands of Jews. It was Christians that dropped atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. It was Christians that killed millions in Vietnam. It was Christians that practiced apartheid in South Africa. Further back it was Christians that wiped out indigenous people of Americas and Australasia and much of Africa.

By the way, ever heard of the Inquisition or the Crusades?

More recently it is the Christian Right that called for the invasion of Iraq and is calling for a war with the Muslim world.

I refer you to Michael Moore's Stupid White Men who pretty much makes the rest of the argument. The book may as well be named Stupid White Christian Men.

TH

[johnslat]

Dear Truth Hurts,
Here we may be ambushed by semantics. I make a differentiation between "people who call themselves Christians but whose behavior belies their claim" and those Christians who actually practice (or at least try their best to) what the New Testament preaches. Certainly among the former group, both history and the present day offer innumerable examples of hypocrisy. And the same could be said, I think, for every other religion. But as for some of your examples, well, I don't think Hitler and at least most of his gang ever even claimed to be Christians. And instead of "Vatican complicity" ("association or participation in or as if in a wrongful act"), I think I'd call it shameful Vatican inaction and indifference, instead. Isn't this the same "problem" we're facing with Osama? Would you call him a Muslim? I wouldn't, simply because his actions don't, in my opinion, reflect how "true/real" Muslims should behave. People can call themselves anything - but whether they actually are what they say they are is another story. Mother Teresa called herself a Christian and Jerry Farwell undoubtedly considers himself to be one. But I'd say that the former actually WAS one, while the latter most definitely is NOT.
Regards,
John

[Truth Hurts]

[johnslat]

Dear Truth Hurts,
I'm afraid you've misunderstood. You wrote

" I just don't understand how Osama comfortably embodies 1 billion+ Muslims and Mother Teresa all the world's Christians."

But my whole point is that Osama does NOT "embody 1 billion+ Muslims", that in fact, Osama, no matter what he calls himself, is NOT a true Muslim. Handsome is as handsome does, so to speak. And, while from what I know of Mother Teresa's life, she DID embody the teachings of the New Testament, she by NO means "embodies all the world's Christians".
If a person calls him/herself a Muslim or a Christian, that does NOT, in my view, necessarily make them one. As the NT puts it, "By their fruits, ye shall know them". Jerry Farwell, is NOT what I'd call a Christian; Mother Teresa was. Osama is NOT what I'd call a Muslim; Naguib Mahfouz IS.

Here's a quote from William Penn that may help explain what I mean:

" The humble, meek, merciful, just, pious and devout souls are everywhere of one religion, and when death has taken off the mask, they will know one another though the diverse liveries they wear here make them strangers.'

Regards,
John

[cornishmaid]

I'm not quite sure how the last few posts relate to ESP - shouldn't these be on a new thread? I don't usually post ... I usually just read, but I have a feeling that some of the recent posters have gently chided others for irrelevant messages in the past. As someone who's interested in ESP, I've been waiting for something interesting to appear under this topic, but we seem to have wandered off track somewhere. Maybe you should start a new thread, so that you don't get me all excited thinking there's something about ESP every time I see that little yellow 'new message' envelope, only too find that we're off and talking about the Crusades. Still, there might have been a need for an ESP course back then, I suppose ... English for Slaughter and Pillage.

[johnslat]

Dear cornishmaid,
Actually, I think the original poster's question pretty much got answered in the first few replies. ( Did you check out the web links given on page one? And, to tell the truth, I think this is the sort of question that can likely be more easily answered by someone doing a little web-seaching on his/her own). Then, as so often happens, the thread took off in all sorts of directions (first one was a contention about just what the initials ESP stand for). From there, it was all downhill, veering off in all sorts of directions. Truth Hurts and I should probably just PM each other when this happens. But once a public posting is publically contended, then it's hard to just leave it sitting there, seemingly unanswered.
Regards,
John
P.S. Hmm, I just realized - these posts are also off-subject.

[manonatrain]

DEAR MR. JOHN...

Well, yes I was quite general and sterotypical with my remark regarding
the evil Christians (LOL).

The Pope and the Catholic church have been historically quite brutal
and cruel to the PEOPLE. Wielding power and destroying lives, absolute corruption. Even today, at least if you happen to live in Ireland,
Italy, or Newfoundland Canada (re: child abuse cases ) or ...? one can be still oppressed by the CHURCH.


the CHURCH still affects who runs for political office, who succeceds, which films are released with the correct attitude to JESUS. According to them.


And does Judaism fall into the JUDO_CHRISTIAN category, or is it seperate.

The MUSLIM _ JUDO CHRISTIAN war has been raging for thousands of years. Is that not what is happening now ???

Isn�t the media constantly spewing hate about Arab culture. In America
they have adopted the MOTTO �Your either with us or against us �.
US--who the ChritianJewish population ????

I personally find Islam to be more harmonious than Christianity. Give or take the 500 years of moderizing the religion still needs to undergo...

PS. Can you tell me what year it is in Islamic terms ?!

[Truth Hurts]

Manonatrain

[manonatrain]

i knew there was a connection.

[manonatrain]

Well, I guess since a lot of folk on this board take things LITERAL, I should qualify my post on liking Islam more than Christianity.

I like it in terms of its pure simplicity. I do not really like it more.
I hate all organized religion equally. Including Hinduism, etc...

Abuse occurs within all religious institutions, as well as control, political manipulation and social exclusion.

Arranged marriages often the cause of INFANCIDE..(?spelling?)
Maybe arguable, but I have seen it here, in the ME. And know of it�s
numbers in India.

Rape, and child molestation by Mullahs is just as common in
the Christian world as the Muslim world. I dare anyone to prove it different.

Being part Christian, by birth... I am tired of the righteous attitude of
the AMERICANS over the Islamic world. Two wrongs don�t make a right.

There is no way that GOD-ALLAH is as proud, as the many people who
take the name of the CREATOR to abuse and supress. They wear crosses,
they quote the Bible, or the Torah or the Koran...all to feel righteous and proud.

Proud of what ? Of racism, of hate, of what ? Of the need for power in their powerless lives.

THE OPPRESSED BECOME THE OPPRESSORS.

PEACE