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Guy Courchesne
Joined: 10 Mar 2003
Posts: 9650
Location: Mexico City
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 Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 8:08 pm Post subject: |
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| My point is not that Mexico shouldn't be taking advantage of this unstable source of income (although the fact that this income is necessary at all really points to a dramatic deficit in Mexico's internal economy!). But as MO39 pointed out, depending on having your own citizens working illegally overseas is never a strong way to build your own national economy. I simply don't see how Mexico can rise to a European-level wealth when this is the present reality. |
Seeing your economy rely heavily on having foreign remittances is clearly not stable in the long term, and no country on earth suffers from this syndrome more than the US, where it has a different name, namely, China buying enormous amounts of US debt. Not trying to knock the US, but the point is you take advantage of the current economic climate to your advantage, sometimes short-term, sometimes long-term, wherever you govern. None of this is to even say that the Mexican government runs an economic policy that encourages people to leave and send money home. I'd agree that they aren't doing very much to stop it, especially out in the country-side.
Something in this thread to clear up by the way. The link I posted cited by various studies didn't say Mexico would enjoy a western-European GDP...it talked about the overall size of the economy, and the stats went out to the year 2050...not exactly next week. Reading the statistics carefully, you come up with why countries like Italy, Canada, Spain, the UK, and France will have smaller economies (but not necessarily lower GDP) than countries like Brazil, Mexico, China, and India. Sheer numbers of people. Birthrates are already in the negatives in the first set up countries (not in the US though) while they are still very much in the positive in the second set of countries (though they too will fall, as GDP rises).
Which poses a dilemma and contributes to the problem we currently have. Falling and aging populations in Western Europe and Canada need people to maintain the system and the wealth, not to mention to scrub toilets. Where are those people coming from? Mexico, China, Brazil, India, and so forth. |
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Prof.Gringo
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 2236
Location: Dang Cong San Viet Nam Quang Vinh Muon Nam!
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| Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 11:07 pm Post subject: |
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For me, a big long term problem in Mexico is the lack of investment in education, research and infrastructure.
If you look at another emerging country, India and compare it to Mexico, the contrasts are startling. Of course India has a population over ten times the size of Mexico, yet Mexico does enjoy many advantages over India.
In India how many of the educated classes are fluent in English? I would venture to guess well over 90%. What about in Mexico? I know many people with degrees, even masters, and they have very poor or nonexistant English skills and abilities. Of course much of this has do to with the different geo-political histories of Mexico and India. Still, Mexico should have a lot more well educated, fluent English speakers than it does.
Mexican universities are not known for research. Far from it. Also, the overall lack of educational investment is hurting Mexico in the long run. Poorly funded public schools and a plethora of private ones often results in inadiquite school faclilities and educational programs.
Mexico also needs to create jobs through massive public works projects and imporvements to areas such as transportation, communications and water/sewage projects. |
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Guy Courchesne
Joined: 10 Mar 2003
Posts: 9650
Location: Mexico City
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| Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 11:13 pm Post subject: |
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| In India how many of the educated classes are fluent in English? I would venture to guess well over 90%. |
I would guess lower, but that is an unfair comparison where language is concerned. England was a colonial overseer to India whereas Spain was to Mexico. A fairer comparison would be Brazil. Interestingly though, India does fare much lower on the human development index than both Mexico and Brazil.
I agree with you on education and infrastructure though. MO speaks of the masses leaving the countryside for work in the US, who could return or stay there and create their own opportunities, but the current reality is that with a grade 3, 6, or 9 education, these people will not know how to do it. You can only sell so many chicles on the street.
Last edited by Guy Courchesne on Fri Sep 12, 2008 1:01 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Milenka
Joined: 30 Jun 2008
Posts: 113
Location: Mexico City
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| Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 11:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Prof.Gringo wrote: |
Mexican universities are not known for research. Far from it. |
World rank 51 and top in Latin America... the one that you so much despise for being a den of "commies". Before you start getting at the keyboard to reply with one of your clever remarks, allow me to tell you that this (unfortunately) is not my alma mater. |
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Oreen Scott
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
Posts: 179
Location: Oaxaca, Mexico
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| Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 2:09 am Post subject: |
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| Today I started working in Chihuahua and asked my students to list the U.S. manufacturing plants for me. Then we discussed whether the Maquiladoras are good for Mexico. My students unanimously thought the Maquiladoras are a good thing. They pay well and are improving the standard of living. |
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TheLongWayHome
Joined: 07 Jun 2006
Posts: 1016
Location: San Luis Piojosi
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| Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 5:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Prof.Gringo wrote: |
| Mexican universities are not known for research. Far from it. Also, the overall lack of educational investment is hurting Mexico in the long run. Poorly funded public schools and a plethora of private ones often results in inadiquite school faclilities and educational programs. |
What alarms me more is the way most Mexicans BS their way through the 'education' system and some even end up in the 'education' system contributing to the problem. I work in a very well-funded public university but there is still very little 'education' going on. It's more like the university of going through the motions.
| Oreen Scott wrote: |
| My students unanimously thought the Maquiladoras are a good thing. They pay well and are improving the standard of living. |
They are sweat-shops now being hit by the US recession. First thing to go will be the English classes. |
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Guy Courchesne
Joined: 10 Mar 2003
Posts: 9650
Location: Mexico City
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| Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 6:19 pm Post subject: |
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| They are sweat-shops now being hit by the US recession. First thing to go will be the English classes. |
I disagree. We didn't see it happen in 2001/2 during that recession. We'll have to wait a bit to see if it happens in this down cycle.
You call them sweat shops...why? As far as I'd heard and read, they have some of highest income in the sector in all of Mexico. Granted, they don't earn what a US manufacturing labourer earns, but then again, neither do you or I. |
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MO39
Joined: 28 Jan 2004
Posts: 1970
Location: El ombligo de la Rep�blica Mexicana
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| Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 7:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Prof.Gringo wrote: |
Mexican universities are not known for research. Far from it.
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One of my clients (I fix up the English in his articles) is a professor/investigator in the Astrophysics Department of the UNAM. I'm not a scientist, but from what I can gather from the papers he authors (along with a group of big-shot physicists from Russia), he is certainly involved in world class research. |
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TheLongWayHome
Joined: 07 Jun 2006
Posts: 1016
Location: San Luis Piojosi
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| Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 11:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Guy Courchesne wrote: |
| You call them sweat shops...why? As far as I'd heard and read, they have some of highest income in the sector in all of Mexico. Granted, they don't earn what a US manufacturing labourer earns, but then again, neither do you or I. |
From what I've seen they are pyramid schemes where few people make a lot of money. The rest are chasing the carrot on the stick. This is what Mexicans mean by, 'In (insert company name) you have the chance to grow'.
A lot of these places go 24 hours a day - but not just the factory workers - there are 'flexi-time' contracts which mean you go when your work is done, even if you finish at 2am. One of my students just had her first vacation in 3 years. Employees of American companies often have to work during Mexican holidays - if the gringos work you work.
I agree that on the surface it seems that Mexico is seeing growth and more employment but take a closer look. I spend a few hours a day in these places and that is more than enough for me. But if it's a choice between that and having no job at all I guess I can see why Mexicans think it's great. |
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Oreen Scott
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
Posts: 179
Location: Oaxaca, Mexico
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| Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2008 1:15 am Post subject: |
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It was a class of eight young adults. The concensus was that American companies coming the Mexico was beneficial to them. I reported what I was told.
It was the opinion of young Mexicans, the future of Mexico. I think I'll respect their opinion and let it go at that.
I started teaching at Deloite yesterday, working with lawyers and accountants who happen to be Mexican. From the minimal time i've spent with them they seem to be rich, proud and to a certain extent anti-American. (A sort of biting the hand that feeds you syndrome) |
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MELEE
Joined: 22 Jan 2003
Posts: 2583
Location: The Mexican Hinterland
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| Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2008 4:51 pm Post subject: Re: un PC view |
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| thelmadatter wrote: |
for my un-PC 2 cents.
However, one historical reality I dont see changing anytime soon and probably Mexico's biggest stumbling block... this idea that everything revolves around Mexico City and the rest of the country is for the city to exploit and discard, as it sees fit. Living in DF, and looking around, it is kind of easy to see Mexico as a potential economic power... but all you have to do is go outside of it to quite a few areas of the country and its like walking 100 years or more into the past. |
�
I couldn't agree with this more. Mexico is too large for this "province vs. capital" mentality to continue. I understand it in a country like Chile, where 50% of the pop. lives in the captial. But Chilangos have a very scewed veiw of the province, which is extremely varied.
| thelmadatter wrote: |
The south of this country fares the worst. More removed from international contact, and hell bent on keeping everything the was it was 100-1000 years ago. Problem is you cant have the benefits of a modern society and insist that you dont have to accept a modern economic or political system.
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It's true the south fares the worst--but of course you know I have to take issue with the "hell bent" statement--you've become chilangosized so quickly, you all ready falling into the idea the "everything revolves around Mexico City..." mentality.
| MO39 wrote: |
From what I've read of the money that flows back is that most of it goes into building large new homes for the family left behind, rather than into creating small businesses that might provide jobs for the next generation. |
I have first hand experience in both villages and small towns in the south. While in many many villages this is true--and even so far that with the money flowing in they've decided to stop planting and just buy all their food and watch Sky all day!!! but other villages are very organized and use the money collectively to buy ambulances, pave their roads, hire a doctor to come to work in the village--one town, Cacaloxtepec, even built a distance learning center hooked up with ITESM for those left behind in the village to use for FREE. Here in Huajuapan most of the people who leave and come back (many never come back) do use the money to start up small business--but true, the tend to copy other sucessfull business (creating more than the market can handle) or use what skills they learned in the US. We have more pizza places in Huajuapan than a city the size of Puebla.
I invite you all to come and visit me--I'm give you a reality tour of th e State--but you will have to wait until Jan--I'm out of here next week!!! |
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MO39
Joined: 28 Jan 2004
Posts: 1970
Location: El ombligo de la Rep�blica Mexicana
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| Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2008 5:43 pm Post subject: Re: un PC view |
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| MELEE wrote: |
| MO39 wrote: |
From what I've read of the money that flows back is that most of it goes into building large new homes for the family left behind, rather than into creating small businesses that might provide jobs for the next generation. |
I have first hand experience in both villages and small towns in the south. While in many many villages this is true--and even so far that with the money flowing in they've decided to stop planting and just buy all their food and watch Sky all day!!! but other villages are very organized and use the money collectively to buy ambulances, pave their roads, hire a doctor to come to work in the village--one town, Cacaloxtepec, even built a distance learning center hooked up with ITESM for those left behind in the village to use for FREE. Here in Huajuapan most of the people who leave and come back (many never come back) do use the money to start up small business--but true, the tend to copy other sucessfull business (creating more than the market can handle) or use what skills they learned in the US. We have more pizza places in Huajuapan than a city the size of Puebla.
I invite you all to come and visit me--I'm give you a reality tour of th e State--but you will have to wait until Jan--I'm out of here next week!!! |
I'm glad to learn that some of the remittance money is going into collective, productive activities. Thanks for filling us in on that, MELEE. The fact that "many never come back" reminds of another downside to the Mexican migration north in search of work. In general, those who have the gumption to leave behind all that is familiar and take up life in an alien land are among the most enterprising and hard-working in the population. When they choose to "never come back", it's a real loss to the communities they've left behind in terms of human capital, if not in financial terms.
I hope your stay in the States is a happy one for you and your girls. When you get back, I'd like to take you up on your invitation to visit your corner of Mexico. |
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Guy Courchesne
Joined: 10 Mar 2003
Posts: 9650
Location: Mexico City
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| Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2008 5:48 pm Post subject: |
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| I agree that on the surface it seems that Mexico is seeing growth and more employment but take a closer look. I spend a few hours a day in these places and that is more than enough for me. But if it's a choice between that and having no job at all I guess I can see why Mexicans think it's great. |
I think that's it right there...job or no job. I agree that labour standards in Mexico are not great by any stretch, but what kind of people are employed in the sector? Under-educated, and often women. What else could these people do, besides sweep floors, flip tacos, or run off to the US. |
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Guy Courchesne
Joined: 10 Mar 2003
Posts: 9650
Location: Mexico City
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| Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2008 6:37 pm Post subject: |
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| But Chilangos have a very scewed veiw of the province, which is extremely varied. |
I'm curious to know what that or those views are...and wonder if it works both ways, for some of the comments I read here. |
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MO39
Joined: 28 Jan 2004
Posts: 1970
Location: El ombligo de la Rep�blica Mexicana
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| Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2008 6:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Guy Courchesne wrote: |
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| But Chilangos have a very scewed veiw of the province, which is extremely varied. |
I'm curious to know what that or those views are...and wonder if it works both ways, for some of the comments I read here. |
Me too. Some of the comments I read about chilangos here don't describe anyone I know here in the capital. And many chilangos have roots in the "provincia" and enjoy visiting the towns and villages they or their parents come from. |
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