Job Discussion Forums

[CharlieBaloney]

Thanks everybody for your suggestions. I have a TV (but no cable) and will see if I can't get into a telenovela. Also, I found two audiobooks and received from my roommate a disk of "cuentos." DVDs with Spanish subtitles are also a great idea.

Of course, a more lively social life would help a lot, but I'm 49 and pretty busy with teaching, class prep, and napping. That said, I am hanging on to those few friends and associates I have (1) rather carefully.

Will check out those links, too. Thanks, Jillford.

Charlie

[Mrs L]

Hope you don't ming me hijacking the topic, but while we're on the subject of learning Spanish I'm interested in how all you L2 Spanish speakers learnt/ acquired a particular construction.

I'm writing my dissertation on transfer in second language acquisition and was wondering if any of you remember being taught a rule for when to use prepositions in sentences containing verb+infinitive. Obviously in English we always use 'to infinitives' want to go, learn to swim etc but in Spanish different verbs take a, de, que, en or no preposition (I'm not even going into gerunds here because then it gets even more complicated). What I want to know is, were any of you ever taught a rule to help you learn this, or given a list of verbs+prepositions to memorise? If not did you just sort of acquire it somewhere along the line?

Any feedback or comments you can give me would be helpful, and feel free to pm me if you're interested in my research. Thanks

[Guy Courchesne]

I'm self-taught on Spanish. The first such rules or constructions I learned likely came from translating, such as with the verbs want, need, and prefer. Everything else I think I probably acquired simply by listening and incorporating the feature into my day-to-day usage, such as ir a(l), hablar de, con, etc, intentar a, etc, etc.

Come to think of it, French probably helped me absorb some of these more easily.

[notamiss]

[Mrs L]

That's what I wanted, some real life experience from people who acquired their Spanish by living in the country rather than being taught it in a classroom. It's a simple construction but the fact that it isn't taught makes it something interesting to test for, I'm looking at different levels of Spanish learners and seeing at what point in their language development they seem able to correctly understand and use this construction. I do remember wanting to put a in front of every single verb when I first arrived in Mexico, but I quickly got out of the habit, somehow just picked up how to use it like you two did.

Guy, as for your commment about French there are actually a few cases where your knowledge of French should (technically at least) be a hindrance not a help (eg acercar a in Spanish but aprochar de in French). That'd be another intersting thing to look at, French vs English native speakers both learning Spanish but I just can't go into it that deeply.

Thanks for you comments.[/i]

[TheLongWayHome]

[lozwich]

I have a verb book that has a list of all the prepositions that go after various verbs. I looked at it once and thought it would be impossibly boring to try to memorise them all, especially since I'm totally useless at rote learning. I prefer aquiring things like that through use, like others have mentioned, even though I have spent a lot of time formally studying Spanish too.

[Mrs L]

Thanks for your input everyone

What you all said makes a lot of sense, especially about things just 'feeling' right- it's a sort of instinctive judgement that we all have about our native language and it's much harder to come by in a second (or thirs) language. Just by living in Mexico you're acquiring Spanish in a naturalistic setting and so you're going to get that 'feeling' more than someone who's only learnt Spanish in a classroom.

I was speaking to the head of Spanish in the programme where I'm recruiting volunteers yesterday (in England) and she said they never teach this construction nor refer people to those verb lists Lozwich mentioned (which I'm using the first time ever just to make sure there are no errors in my experiment lol). Being classroom based the learners I'm working with make lots of errrors with these prepositions even at quite an advanced level. I just somehow 'picked it up' whilst living in Mexico so I was curious if the rest of you felt the same. Not a very scientific method I know, but it's helped me think about some of the issues surrounding my research.

[Guy Courchesne]

Would you say that irregular verb constructions fall into the same category? Again, I didn't learn in a classroom, learning mostly by ear. I struggle sometimes still with verbs I don't use very often and that take an irregular form.

[Mrs L]

Do you mean can you just sort of get a 'feeling' for irregular verbs? Acquiring language in a naturalistic setting should occur across all areas- grammar, pronuncitation, vocabulary etc and isn't just restricted to what I'm looking at. People are still arguing over to what extent you can learn a second language in this way though.

However, to acquire a language outside the classroom you have to be exposed to it a lot so are the verbs you're struggling with some of the more obscure ones that not only do you not use as often but you don't hear as often? I bet you don't struggle with tener, ir,ser for example even though they're wildly irregular, right?

There's also a whole host of other factors that could affect your use of verbs, did you ever find yourself mixing them up with French verbs when you first starting learning? I'm not a French speaker so didn't have that experience myself.

[Guy Courchesne]

I didn't so much confuse Spanish for French verbs as I tended more to speak Spanish with a French accent that I don't have in English.

[Mrs L]

[Guy Courchesne]

I will say, perhaps erroneuosly, that yes I do. I can't see any other way to gain that street-level intution. The question may be more about to what end one seeks in fluency.