Job Discussion Forums

[Never Ceased To Be Amazed]

John:
Now, as ever before, you outclass me. No wonder MOD EDIT visits you.

NCTBA

[redeyes]

Thanks for the reply John -- I agree with your points.

However, I don't understand the following -- you wrote

[Never Ceased To Be Amazed]

John, you've got me on this one as well. I know of Wahabbists being that bizzare following of Mohammed Abdulwahab...read:Saudi adherants to their "puritanical" believe of Islam, but I thought that Sufi (as if I EVER gave it a second thought) was the off-shoot that is best exemplified by the "Whirling Dervishes" in Turkey. Could I be wrong...as if I gave a flip?

If I am correct, then "dancing" and "music" would be definitely agianst the Wahabbi code...I was even called down by a Mutawwa "collegue" for whistling down a hallway.

I also know that Shia in Saudi Arabia are almost exclusively "confined?" to Medina and the EP.

As an old..er timer where have I been mistaken?

NCTBA

[johnslat]

Dear redeyes and NCTBA,

It's my understanding that Sufism is the "mystical" branch (or perhaps "element" would be a better term) of Islam, and that while Sufism began as an offshoot of the Shia, there are also Sunni (though not strict Wahhabis, of course) who incorporate Sufism into their beliefs and practices.

"Sunni Sufi are the only group that tie Sunnah and Shia�a concepts, hence Sunni Sufi honor both physical and spiritual inheritance of Mohammed pbuh. Therefore, the twelfth Imams, the Four Chalifs, Wives of the Prophet and his Companions are all honored and respected. Sunni Sufism may be called a mediator.

The spiritual experience is based on a main core, which solve the imaginary conflict of the Mighty Creator swt. It is a philosophy about why man can not realize Allah Himself, but realizes his deeds and descriptions. The main finding that a deep meaning of love is to be considered between Allah swt and his preferred creation; Man. All are in harmony with a main reason for creation that Allah swt wanted to be known. So, principle act of Man is to worship Allah swt, and reflect this in every aspect of life and wish."

http://groups.msn.com/islamlook/sunnisufism.msnw


"Shī�ism and Sunni Sufism are said to share a number of hallmarks: Belief in an inner meaning to the Quran; special status for some mortals (saints for Sufi, Imams for Shī�īs); belief in intermediaries between man and God, veneration of �Alī and the Prophet's family."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_Shi'a-Sunni_relations

"While some consider the Islamic mysticism called Sufism to constitute a separate branch, most Sufis can easily be considered Sunni or Shia. Sufism is the hardest to understand by non-practitioners because on first sight it seems that sufis are either of Shiah or Sunni denomination, but it is true that some sects of Sufism can be categorised as both Sunni and Shiah whilst others are not from either denomination. The distinction here is because the schools of thought (madhhabs) are regarding "legal" aspects of Islam, the "dos" and "don'ts", whereas Sufism deals more with perfecting the aspect of sincerity of faith, and fighting one's own ego. Other people may call themselves Sufis who may be perceived as having left Islam (or never followed Islam). There are ... some very large groups or sects of Sufism that are not easily categorised as either Sunni or Shiah, such as the Bektashi or those that can be categorised as both at the same time, eg the Brelvi. Sufism is found more or less across the Islamic world, though bearing distinctive regional variations, from Senegal to Indonesia."

http://www.lycos.com/info/sunni-islam--shia-muslims.html

When I was in Saudi, I knew Saudi Sunnis who considered themselves to be "Sufis."

Regards,
John

[veiledsentiments]

Not Saudis, but I know Sufis who are Sunni...

VS

[007]

The main difference between Sunni and Shias Sufisms is political and not spiritual.

Well, Sufism existed in the magic kingdom, mainly in Hijaz (western region of Saudi Arabia), and this was before the Al-Saud family and the Wahhabis took power in 1920. The Wahhabis, banned all forms of Sufism celebrations and destroyed some of the historic shrines, fearing they would lead to idolatry and polytheism.
But, after 9/11, things turned against the Wahhabis, and King Abdullah acknowledged the country's diverse sects and schools of thought including the Sufism, and met with Alawi Malki who was seen as the Sufi leader in Saudi Arabia. When Malki died some year ago, King Abdullah (was defence minister) and the interior minister attended his funeral.

[Sheikh N Bake]

007, it is considered bad form not to cite your source, even in this forum. You ought to know better, since you claim pretensions to being some kind of professor.

No one here minds that your English is not perfect; after all, how good is our Arabic? But I did get annoyed in the past when you actually presumed to give us English lessons (e.g., your erroneous assumptions on the difference between "alternate" and "alternative"). I would suggest honesty is the best policy.

http://www.wimnet.org/articles/mawlidsa.htm

your quote:... banned all forms of Sufism celebrations and destroyed some of the historic shrines, fearing they would lead to idolatry and polytheism.

your source: the Wahhabis banned mawlids as a form of heresy and destroyed the historic shrines of Khadija, Fatima and the prophet's companions, fearing they would lead to idolatry and polytheism

your quote: But, after 9/11, things turned against the Wahhabis, and King Abdullah acknowledged the country's diverse sects and schools of thought including the Sufism, and met with Alawi Malki who was seen as the Sufi leader in Saudi Arabia

your source: following the Sept. 11 attacks, when the future King Abdullah, then the crown prince, held a series of meetings to acknowledge the country's diverse sects and schools of thought. One of the guests was Sufi leader Malki.

[Never Ceased To Be Amazed]

BTW, John...great .jpeg! Did I miss it or did you not answer my thoughts of the connection between Sufis and the Whirling Dervishes?

NCTBA

[007]

[johnslat]

Dear NCTBA,
Oh yes - the whirling dervishes (dervish means "doorway" and the dance they perform - which some say resembles the movement of electrons in the atom - is intended to help them pass through the "door" from the material world into the spiritual world.}
One branch of the dervishes, called the Mawlawi (or Mevlevi in Turkey) , is said to have been founded by Rumi.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rumi#The_Mawlaw.C4.AB_Sufi_Order

Regards,
John

[zeke0606]

As the original poster of this thread, I want to thank you all for hi-jacking it! I find this behavior rude and very ill mannered. I see this behavior very often on the Saudi Arabian forum and I sometimes wonder if your teaching habits are just as rude and ill mannered.

If you want to discuss the fine points of the different sects of Islam, be my guest --- BUT do it on your own damn thread!

Zeke

[Never Ceased To Be Amazed]

[johnslat]

Dear Zeke,
Sorry - but it may help to think of threads you create as being like children you bear: no matter how much you want them to stay on the straight and narrow path, they go astray all too often (well, I did, anyway.)
But what's a Mother (or Father) to do?
Regards,
John

[redeyes]

Zeke said --

[johnslat]

Here's a thought for taking books to Saudi Arabia: Kindle, a portable library:

"Revolutionary electronic-paper display provides a sharp, high-resolution screen that looks and reads like real paper. Simple to use: no computer, no cables, no syncing. Wireless connectivity enables you to shop the Kindle Store directly from your Kindle�whether you�re in the back of a taxi, at the airport, or in bed. Buy a book and it is auto-delivered wirelessly in less than one minute. More than 200,000 books available, including more than 100 of 112 current New York Times� Best Sellers. New York Times� Best Sellers and New Releases $9.99, unless marked otherwise. Free book samples. Download and read first chapters for free before you decide to buy. Top U.S. newspapers including The New York Times, Wall Street Journal, and Washington Post; top magazines including TIME, Atlantic Monthly, and Forbes�all auto-delivered wirelessly. Top international newspapers from France, Germany, and Ireland; Le Monde, Frankfurter Allgemeine, and The Irish Times�all auto-delivered wirelessly. More than 1000 top blogs from the worlds of business, technology, sports, entertainment, and politics, including BoingBoing, Slashdot, TechCrunch, ESPN's Bill Simmons, The Onion, Michelle Malkin, and The Huffington Post�all updated wirelessly throughout the day. Lighter and thinner than a typical paperback; weighs only 10.3 ounces. Holds over 200 titles. Long battery life. Leave wireless on and recharge approximately every other day. Turn wireless off and read for a week or more before recharging. Fully recharges in 2 hours. Unlike WiFi, Kindle utilizes the same high-speed data network (EVDO) as advanced cell phones�so you never have to locate a hotspot. No monthly wireless bills, service plans, or commitments�we take care of the wireless delivery so you can simply click, buy, and read. Includes free wireless access to the planet's most exhaustive and up-to-date encyclopedia�Wikipedia.org. Email your Word documents and pictures (.JPG, .GIF, .BMP, .PNG) to Kindle for easy on-the-go viewing. Included in the box: Kindle wireless reader, Book cover, Power adapter, USB 2.0 cable "


http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000FI73MA/?tag=gocous-20&hvadid=2866207397&ref=pd_sl_4ndyi8v9z_e

My dear wife just gave me one for Christmas. Boy, how I wish I could have had one when I was traveling back and forth to Saudi. I could have
carried years of reading in a 7.5" x 5.3" x 0.7" Weight: 10.3 ounces package.

Regards,
John