Job Discussion Forums

[ghost]

Ghost will soon end his stay in South East Asia.

Flying from Colombo (Sri Lanka) to Bangkok on Tuesday, and then one more week in Thailand before flying to London and Barcelona.

Will work in Canada for the summer.

In the fall, the plan is to go to Colombia. Anyone familiar with the cities of Medellin, Cali, or Bogota.

All the best from Negombo, Sri Lanka.

[ghost]

Further on language acquisition:

Languages vary in their difficulty. If you are already fluent in a Romance language (like French) you will be able to pick up other Romance languages in a short time....and you will not necessarily have to study very hard...your ear will recognize a lot of the new words, and you will understand from the context too.

So....picking up Spanish, Italian and Portuguese was easy.

Turkish, might be considered a "medium difficult' language to learn for non natives, and experts usually claim that for foreign languages which are not similar to one's own, one needs a minimum of 700 hours of study for fluency.

For "difficult' languages like Thai, Khmer, Chinese, Sinhala and Tamala...which are very difficult because of tonal variances one needs to triple the 700 hour rule.

But with motivation it can be done. Diplomats and NGO's who have no more ability than the average have shown fluency in those difficult languages within one year of study supplemented by living in the country where the difficult language is spoken.

[yaramaz]

I agree with ghost (folks, kindly pick yourselves up from the floor- fainting is unnecessary).

I grew up fluent in English and French. Because of my french abilities I can understand simple written and spoken Spanish, Italian, Portuguese, and even some Romanian (written rather than spoken, as Romanian pronunciation is quite different).

I have had no courses in these languages nor have I spent much time in countries where they are spoken-- a week here, a fortnight there, just passing through...

However, due to the Latin base of all 5, I can pull meaning relatively easily... much more so than with, say, Turkish. Or Mandarin. Or Haida for that matter. As well, after living with an Afrikaans speaking boyfriend for 2 years, I could understand enough of the related Dutch and Flemish languages to be able to travel around the Benelux area without overusing English.

I think that if I actually put my mind to it and studied each of these languages in their relevant countries, I could relatively easily achieve fluency in a very short time. Call me in a year and I will tell you I am fluent in English, French, Spanish, Italian, Portuguese, Afrikaans, Dutch, Flemish and Turkish (Inşallah!)

[vre]

Is it possible that people can be just very bad/ slow learners of a language? My experience

French 5years
German 4 years
Greek 4 years
Turkish 3 years

And I can barely communicate in ANY of them!

What is wrong with me?

[ghost]

The best way to achieve high success in a foreign language in a relatively short time is high motivation, with immersion in the country where that language is spoken.

It is said that if you are lucky enough to have a "significant other" who only speaks the language you wish to learn, your learning time will be even shorter...."bed talk" is the most effective of all...., and with reason, as it evokes such strong emotions in one....

VRE is unlucky in not having success with the languages studied, but again, one may think that the individual, and his/her motivation play a key role.

When teaching French in the Durham schools system (Whitby/Oshawa/Ontario) in 2002, one noticed that the students, in their vast majority, did not do well in the language, because they were (in their vast majority) not motivated...as simple as that. Interesting to note, that a few girls, but not boys, showed interest in French, and they usually did well.

If you are interested in something, learning will be facilitated.

For "medium difficult" languages like Turkish, it is wise to invest in a formal course, because that will give you the base (almost mathematical) on which to build your further conversation skills...and your understanding will be that much greater.

The problem with learning esoteric languages like Sinhala, Tamil, Khmer, Thai etc....is that they have tonal variations which are not familiar to speakers of Anglo and Latin languages. In addition, for example with Sinhala (Sri Lanka), their alphabet consists of some 283 weird looking characters...

Those difficult languages sometimes have consonant sounds which have no English equivalent, and they take a lot of practice to reproduce. The problem is that most people give up too easily...with a little patience, the initial difficulties will be overcome.

A recent visit to Chiang Mai (Thailand) found some impressive results in Thai from some expats, especially those who had Thai girlfriends. Their motivation was so high, that learning was greatly facilitated. And yes...motivation, one thinks, is the main key.

One has always been told that one has great 'talent' with languages, and my tally may seem impressive, but what has always helped one, is motivation plus a good ear.

If your ear is "empathetic" to your interlocutor, you will do very well. In ghost's case, when living in Dublin, Eire, ghost acquired an Irish accent. Then British, during his stay in England, followed by standard "North American" accent when moved to Canada...and so it continues.

Many teachers in Turkey do not take the opportunity to immerse themselves in the language, because it is all too easy to fall into the rut of speaking only in English and watching cable t.v. in English...and that is a pity.

When ghost travels around Turkey, he claims to be of Argentine origin, and this obviates the need to speak in English...you just get the Turkish. It may be selfish, but why should it always be us (native English speakers) who give "free" English lessons. If you want to learn Turkish, deny you speak English. Tell your bus neighbor that you are from a Latin American country and speak in Turkish..

Back in Bangkok, Thailand, for the festivities of the Buddhist New Year. It is one giant street party, confined to people ages 16-25....they all use water pistols and throw white stuff on one....one big mess....plus Thai rock and techno...the party is 24hours a day for 5 days....but ghost prefers the Brazil variety of parties......

[Albulbul]

Some people are good at football. Some are not. It is the same with learning foreign languages.

What I find odd is that we have so many monoglots in the field of EFL. It is rather as if peopl who had never learned football were acting as coaches !

[Laura777]

Newbie here, I speak Japanese fluently (major in University), Polish elementary, Turk - beginning. Also bits and pieces of other languages I have picked up along the way. As Albulbul stated, some have the ease of language.

I play music, so maybe it's with the hearing?

Sorry for jumping in...!

[moonraven]

To Ghost:

Colombia can be difficult. If something happens you are really on your own. It is only recommended that you travel around there by air. I don't remember if you said your Spanish was good. If not, maybe you should consider a less problematic country in Latin America....

[ghost]

Yes, Ghost speaks fluent Spanish, and can pass for 'native speaker' in the language...

The two months spent in South East Asia (Thailand, Cambodia, Vietnam, Laos, Sri Lanka) showed ghost that he does not want to live and work in any of those countries, with the exception of Sri Lanka.

Colombia sounds good, despite the danger people talk about.....but that is exaggerated.

Ghost visited Tumaco (Southern Colombia) in 1994 (close to the Ecuador border). This was a town where people told one not to venture out into the streets at dusk....but ghost did that, and continues to go out in places where people tell one not to do so (Managua/Nicaragua, San Salvador/El Salvador etc...). People always exaggerate about the risks involved in countries like those mentioned.

If you keep your nose clean and stay with the right people, you diminish the crime risks, that are inherent in some parts of the world.

Colombia sounds interesting, because there are not too many tourists there, and there are more pickings for the jobs...

Ghost is now in Pattaya, Thailand, at the beach, staying in a 500 baht room with air con and cable t.v. ($13 U.S.). People claim that Pattaya is the biggest '*beep* house' in the world, and it is certainly fascinating to watch the scene...although one would not want to stay here too long. The beach is pretty awful...one cannot even swim, because there are so many speed boats zooming around the shore...the dangers are real, but the Thai authorities turn a blind eye.

One will not return to Thailand or neighbor countries in the future....out of the trip the only country worth going to was Sri Lanka....thanks to its lovely people, who show a genuine interest in foreigners, not the 'pasty' false smiles you get in Thailand and the neighboring countries.

Last night a Thai person, claimed that foreigners are polluting the country and should be kicked out....talk about blatant zenophobia....and his view is endorsed by a sizeable majority of Thais...

[moonraven]

Re: Colombia--the job situation depends on if you want to work there legally. If you do, forget about it--unless things have changed dramatically--and I doubt that they have since mid-Februay--the government imigration folks will not issue work permits to foreigners unless that employer can "guarantee the employee's safety"--so that sort of takes it out of your hands, Ghost. If you want to work illegally, of course, it's a different ballgame.

I am also intrepid--roaming around Latin America for more than 10 years now and have never had a problem. The deal in Colombia, however, is that foreigners who appear to be gringos are frequently taken and held as hostages by one group or another. But you might get a best-selling book out of the experience....

[ghost]

Moonraven: Thanks for the info. on Colombia.

The plan is to just show up in the fall in a place like Medellin or Cali and try to find work....

You mention roaming Latin America for 10 years...which places did you go to and which countries did you enjoy.

This poster worked in Guatemala for one year in 1995, and then for a short while in Honduras (American school, Tela, Honduras), before succumbing to Hepatitis and being shipped home for r and r.

Ghost also visited Nicaragua (good), El Salvador (dodgy), Costa Rica, Ecuador, Colombia, Peru, Brazil.

Have yet to visit Chile, Bolivia, Argentina, Paraguay, Uruguay, etc....what's the skinny on living and teaching in those countries?

Ghost thinks that Thailand is grossly overrated as a destination. Most tourists simply don't get it - the Thais care absolutely nothing for us - they only like their own. If you travel outside classic tourist places like Pattaya and Phuket etc....you will be completely ignored....you are of absolute no interest to the Thais, or other people in the region for that matter (Cambodia, Vietnam, Laos).



Just today, speaking to a French expat who has been here for 7 years. The expat tells one about the vast majority of expats being conned into fraudulent marriages by young Thai women....it is all a big con....

[scot47]

ghost is right about thailand

unsavoury

[moonraven]

Whew--where to begin....

At end, I guess: I knew somebody who got into one of those opportunistic marriages--in this case in Bali. He was a sucker--but nobody forced him to marry the woman and take her and her son to the US so that she could dump him in Santa Fe.

I have concentrated most of my Latin American roaming energies in Mexico and Venezuela, but have also worked in Ecuador. Love Mexico, love Venezuela (but only do theater projects and support the Bolivarian Revolution, as salaries for teaching are not worth considering), enjoyed the Sierra in Ecuador but found the coastal area depressing and the people highly conflictive. I can say that in Chile and Peru salaries are also not viable--and the food in Chile is insipid. Have only been across the border in Brazil and have not run guns in Paraguay or anything else exciting further south. Have been thinking about Bolivia, as I have gotten to know--a little--one of the indigenous leaders, Evo Morales, and think highly of him.

As for Medellin or Cali--I don't know about teaching there, as there might be more exciting things to do. Have you read "La virgen de los sicarios", by Fernando Vallejo, or seen the two good street films made by Victor Gavira--"RodrigoD, no futuro" and "La vendadora de rosas"?

[ghost]

An article in the Bangkok Post (English Language daily) talks about approx. 1500 injured and 47 people killed during the past few days during the celebrations of Songkrak, the Buddhist water festival, during which time people compete to pour buckets of water on each other and passerby from motorbikes, Tuk Tuks, open air trucks and anything else that moves....the madness continues, and ghost just thinks the whole scene is ludicrous and a waste...without mentioning the crazy dangers involved...picture a truck with about 30 people hanging from the sides and everywhere dangling buckets of water and trying to throw water....

Colombia sounds good to ghost....but one really has to go to a place and live the experience...otherwise it is just talk and nothing else.

Example - most people rave about living and working in Turkey, but for this poster reality was something else, so you have to take everything you read and hear about with a pinch of salt....and live the experience yourself....and that is why it was good for ghost to actually go and see South East Asian countries and actually go into the Language schools, talk with the teachers and students and sit in on some classes.

The lesson has been a salutory one, because following the examination of the countries involved, ghost will not work in the countries seen....the only country of interest was Sri Lanka, but the ESL scene there is very limited. Thailand, Cambodia, Vietnam and Laos, are nice for a couple of days visit, but nothing else.....one really asks oneself why expats choose to stay here. Some of them confess to being 'sexpats' but surely that is not enough to make one want to stay in a new country on a semi permanent basis?

[OzBurn]

With regard to Colombia, I've never been there, but I worked with a Colombian woman last year, and her account of it was that it was too dangerous for her. Everyone she knew wanted to leave because of the daily risk of murder, robbery, bombings, etc. She said, I think, that Cartagena was the exception -- but recommended flying there, not travelling overland.

My mother, who travelled in Iraq not long before the second war started, also visited Colombia with Witness to Peace. When I mentioned I might go there to work, she, who never shies away from anywhere no matter how reputedly dangerous, said that I probably should give it a miss. During her short time there (a couple of weeks) there were several bombings with in a few blocks of their hotel.

She, like Ghost, and like me, tends to discount people's warnings about how "dangerous" such-and-such a place is. However, in the case of Colombia, I believe the dangers are real.