Job Discussion Forums

SueH · Joined: 01 Feb 2003 Posts: 1022 Location: Northern Italy

I'm not particularly well-qualified (CELTA, part of a City&Guilds qualification), or particularly experienced in terms of hours, but I also have some good references; including not directly from my employer but from my college mentor (a senior _teacher_) - as it was a well organised FE college in the UK. I've been observed by department heads, mentors and even OFSTED (UK teachers will understand!). In such circumstances I'd be pretty disappointed if my experience were completely discounted and I was overlooked for a callow newbie.

Justin Trullinger · Posted: Sun Mar 15, 2009 11:34 pm Post subject:

Maybe not for a callow newbie-

But howsabout making it easier for us hiring types by getting a few more quals?

Best,
Justin

Salverston · Joined: 16 Mar 2009 Posts: 9 Location: Guayaquil, Ecuador

Mike
I think the references from students can go so far, but then they are not educators. You can get great references even if you are a bad teacher, but you have a great personality and your students like you.

The idea of the observations are that you have been reviewed by educators knowledgeable in teaching who can evaluate you on the things that make an effective teacher - knowledge of subject, presentation, classroom management and the like. One thing I think would be effective here is if you have been observed by your supervisor or director, who can do an evaluation of some classes you have done.

As Justin says (BTW Hi Justin!) it really depends on the organization, the director, the individual teacher, how strict the licensing requirements for that position are and how bad the need is.

clairec · Joined: 22 Mar 2009 Posts: 5 Location: Paris

How long have you been in teaching, Justin?
Never heard of the OCNW, one of the most famous awarding bodies in the UK?
Never heard of INTESOL, which has been operating worldwide for a while now, and which is recommended by the British Council as a valid alternative to Celta and Trinity?
I graduated from INTESOL some time ago, after checking their reputation with other teachers of my acquaintance and giving a ring to the British Council here in Paris.
They do offer teaching practice following the online course, and recommend it.
I have just checked their website and found no deadlinks.
There must be a misunderstanding.
Claire

Justin Trullinger · Posted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 3:08 pm Post subject:

Welcome Claire,

I've been teaching quite a while, thanks for asking. Yourself? I didn't say, coincidentally, that I hadn't heard of INTESOL, merely that I don't "know" it. Hadn't looked into it until it came up on this thread.

Would you like to provide a link for the BC recommendation for INTESOL? If you'll provide some evidence for that statement, I think we'd all be interested in seeing it. I have a hard time believing this could apply to all their courses, as not all have any teaching practice component.

I could see clearly on their website that they offer practice teaching options. Offer quite a lot of courses without it, though. At a glance, a lot of the courses on their website (mostly distance) don't meet the minimum requirements to be considered a qualification by me, or by many. The fact that they "recommend" it doesn't really change the fact that they offer certificates without it. To many of us, these just aren't certificates. I believe the BC feels likewise.

To be as clear as I can: I'm not attacking INTESOL specifically. But I feel some of the claims on their website are exaggerated and hard to back up. I think the issue is further confused by the fact that they offer such a variety of courses, some of which appear, at a glance, to be much more valid than others. But they state the claims, much as you stated your claim about the British Council, as if they apply to INTESOL courses in general.

I'll repeat my favourite:

clairec · Joined: 22 Mar 2009 Posts: 5 Location: Paris

Justin Trullinger · Posted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 4:35 pm Post subject:

I guess we'll be agreeing to disagree on this one, Claire. I'm not out to attack INTESOL, nor do I "despise" them.

I do get tired of questionable qualifications with big marketing claims. And there are plenty of qualifications on INTESOL's website that don't meet your standards, mine, or the BC's.

If, as you say, "teaching practice is of paramount importance" , why the heck do they offer qualifications without it? I agree with you, by the way, about the value of a distance qual that lets people who can't take 4 weeks off in a row get a certificate. I disagree with cluttering the issue by also offering qualifications with no practical element.

Why claim to be the best known, when they aren't?

Online doesn't mean dodgy. Dodgy means dodgy. Innacurate, unsupportable claims are dodgy. I'm not opposed to online. But claims made publicly need to be backed up.

Even the claims that are true are undoubtedly confusing to newbies- because they don't apply to all their courses, but all the courses are on the same website.

Best,
Justin

PS- Look into the distance DELTA- What about assessment? What about observations by your local tutor?

While your statement "Regarding teaching practice, may I remind that the Distance Delta does not include teaching practice either?" depends somewhat on what you define as "teaching practice," the implication that there is no practical teaching component to the distance DELTA is simply erroneous.

J

clairec · Joined: 22 Mar 2009 Posts: 5 Location: Paris

INTESOL is not the only college with such claims.
Justin,

If you visit TEFL International, which 'supports Dave's ESL caf�', you'll read:

The Future is Here - The World�s FIRST Virtual TESOL Course why take this Course?

And they also offer 100% online courses:
[i]Alternatively take our Basic Virtual course for $350 without observed teaching practice

Does it make you see red, too? Then you may wish to encourage the owner of this website not to advertise for such a company...

It's just marketing, they all do that, don't they? It's a competitive market. People have to be intelligent and try, as I did, to get feedback by themselves.

I was once shocked by such business practices, but I have been accustomed to them since I've been teaching in Grandes Ecoles. And I'm not credulous either.

I guess a great many of the establishments advertised on this website offer similar courses, or even worse, without the teaching practice component.

I think it is a good idea to offer an optional TP because it allows students to do it wherever they want, at their local British Council for instance.

Online courses with TP are declared acceptable by the British Council who write on their website:
Distance learning courses can also be a good introduction, but feedback on your teaching practice is essential and most distance courses will not include this, and therefore will not be acceptable to many teaching institutes.
It means 'distance is OK providing there is TP'. That's how I understand it, being a linguistic specialised in discourse analysis.

Maybe all these course providers should indeed honestly say that TP is essential and insist on the fact that potential employers will probably not consider their application for a teaching position unless they've had this component.

Making people are made to believe that their 100% online qualification will secure them a good job is, I admit, 'disputable'.

It is tricky for inexperienced and/or gullible people.

Regarding the DELTA, indeed it is not what I meant by TP. It's assessment indeed, but considering that some people take the Delta without any prior teaching qualification, this is questionable. They count on experience so that some candidates will have never had any supervised teaching practice as such.

In some countries, in France for instance, the type of TEFL qualification you have is not important. It allows them not to offer competitive salaries... In most cases, they've never heard of any qualifications...

Let us hope for the introduction of a code of conduct for TESOL course providers.

Best

Claire

Justin Trullinger · Posted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 5:50 pm Post subject:

clairec · Joined: 22 Mar 2009 Posts: 5 Location: Paris

Justin,

This is from Cambridge website:
http://www.cambridgeesol.org/exams/teaching-awards/delta.html

Am I eligible to apply?Ideally you should:

have at least two years' full time (1,200 hours) experience of teaching English to adults within the past five years
have a range of teaching experience in different contexts and at different levels
be a graduate and/or have an initial teaching qualification
have a standard of English which will enable you to teach at a range of levels.
Centres may still accept you if you do not strictly meet all of these requirements but can demonstrate that you would be likely to complete the course successfully. This is entirely at your centre's discretion.

As you can see, holding a TEFL qualification is not a prerequisite. Being a graduate is enough. What is indispensable is teaching experience.

With a Ph D, I could enrol without any problem.

As far as I know, the rule is the same with Trinity.

Hence my remark about the absence of teaching practice in my previous post.

I could have enrolled on the Diploma, but when I read the Celta and Trinity Certificate curriculum, I realised I still had a lot to learn before. there are things you don't learn on the job, as you know. And indeed the Certificate I took was highly profitable in this respect. I did stretch me. I think Cambridge and Trinity should not offer their diplomas to candidates who have no teaching qualifications. It's like building a house on bad foundations...

What are you studying?

I did English Linguistics, and then Language Sciences and Traductology.

Best

Claire