Job Discussion Forums

[Yes Sir I Can Bogey]

[joey2001]

[Yes Sir I Can Bogey]

Well, quite obviously, it's a language myth associated with initiated laymen. The language of 'Eskimos' does not have any more 'words' for 'snow' than does English. You may want to read 'The Great Eskimo Vocabulary Hoax', by Pullum, an extract from which is below:

http://users.utu.fi/freder/Pullum-Eskimo-VocabHoax.pdf

[joey2001]

[kwashikwashi]

http://www.fsi-language-courses.com/Cantonese.aspx

I can't attest to how good this course is because I never got that far in it. I've dabbled in the Korean and Greek courses on the same site, and they seem to be pretty good. There is a Mandarin course on this page too.

And one here also:
http://www.ctcfl.ox.ac.uk/Chinese/index.html

[A'Moo]

I am relatively fluent in cantonese, and to be honest, whenever in HK, I do my best to not talk it, for all I ever seem to get is resentment, same goes in overseas chinese communities, which I suppose makes sense, for in miserable locales such as HK, it is your civic duty to resent those with more money than you/taller than you/better looking than you/larger balance on their octopus card than you etc....

[joey2001]

[Yes Sir I Can Bogey]

[Marcoregano]

[Yes Sir I Can Bogey]

Those civil servants you work with are probably laughing at you, Marco.

I suggest you go out on the street and public on transport and try to find a single person smiling. Perhaps you are not aware, perhaps such news does not manage to penetrate your cushy non-teaching post with the Hong Kong 'government', but there is currently a full scale recession, the median wage in HK is but around HK$12,000 (some Chinese cities will very soon overtake HK in this regard), more than half of the population lives in government housing - the average size of which is 450 square feet - the average household has some five people (which presumably means some households have up to eight or nine people), and there is no social security or state pension worth mentioning. For all these reasons and more, Hong Kong now has lowest birth rate in the entire world (0.7 per woman) and one of the highest suicide rates, especially when it comes to school-aged kids. Not much to laugh about there. Or perhaps you think the birth rate is so low as Hong Kong people have access to contraception methods that are not yet available anywhere else in the world? And perhaps you think kids throw themselves out of school windows as they are all on LSD and think they can fly? And perhaps you think the people you can see going around collecting cardboard are doing their bit for the environment?

[oxi]

It's lucky we've got Bogey here to remind us how miserable, racist, mean, (etc) the locals are. I did wonder why he (she?) stays in Hong Kong until I realised it's so he can recount his first hand, accurate, often incredibly lengthy, stories. At least he cheers us all up with his helpful, positive advice to newcomers.

[Marcoregano]

[kowlooner]

[Yes Sir I Can Bogey]

It is the living conditions in HK that males people so pedantic? Or it simply the case that they are stuck in HK as a result of not being able to secure employment elsewhere? Either way, there certainly seem to be some very strange people on the forum! I love the way Marco � the forum's resident government-employed editor � states on the one hand that this is not a place to discuss thesis-level work, then on the other hand (when it suits him) starts to quote 'facts' and figures, from the Internet, of course. One is forced to wonder whether government � that is, Marco's employers � are aware that a certain editor is spending so much company time on an ESL discussion forum......

Kowloony writes that "According to the Housing Authority, the figure is slightly under 48%. Also, that figure is split up according to public rental and public subsidized sale flats (the Home Ownership Scheme). The population in public rental flats is just under 30% with the other 18% having purchased HOS flats which are roughly on par with private developments."

So, you try to call into question my figure of, wait for it, more than 50% (which could be 51%) by, wait for it, snapping back with 'figures' (released by none other than the HA - hardly a body without any vested interest in portraying a certain picture of HK) referring to 48%! Sorry, is this for real? What is the definition of 'anal', again? And you certainly seem very trusting of normal HK people to be truthful in where they actually live. Most if not all HK people I know 'place' themselves or their kids (or just their slippers) at a relative's address so as to get into a certain school catchment area and/or to claim certain benefits (such as when people flooded into Kowloon City to be able to claim compensation for being kicked out). The local people are not exactly renowned for following the rules are they?

As regards the so-called distinction between 'public rental' government-provided housing and 'public subsidized' [sic] government-provided housing, they are both forms of government-provided housing.

Let us look at figures from people other than Marco's fellow (recession proof) civil servants over at the HA.

Hodder (see references below) notes (p.98) that somewhat ironically "the free-market paradise of Hong Kong operates the second largest public housing system of the capitalist world." In this public housing system live those who are somewhat less fortunate than those who reside in Kowloon Tong, the Mid-Levels, and Lamma Island (aka 'Laaah-maaa'). For various reasons, exact figures are difficult to ascertain, but Tony Henderson states (p.130) that "at least forty percent of the Hong Kong population live in public housing." Jan Morris (p.234) puts the figure higher, noting that "Today half the entire population lives in apartments provided in one way or another by the State � horribly crowded".

Henderson, Tony (1993), Humanize Hong Kong. Hong Kong: Humanist Association of Hong Kong

Hodder, Rupert (1992) The West Pacific Rim: An Introduction. London Belhaven Press

Morris, Jan (1997) Hong Kong: Epilogue to an Empire. (2nd ed., with an additional chapter.) London: Penguin

Kowloony then writes that "According to the HA, the average living space per person in 1998 was 9.8 sq. meters (105 sq. ft) rising to 12.4 sq. m (133 sq. ft) in 2008. The percentage of household with less than 60 ft per person (5.5 sq m) in 2008 was 0.7% compared to 4.7% in 1998, representing a significant improvement in living conditions."

And there are 11 people in a football, but that is hardly relevant, is it? What, apart from backing up what I and the authors above write, is your point, exactly? Are you really trying to tell readers of the forum that HK people don't live in tiny little flats? Absolutely bizarre!

The non-teaching-editor-in-the-government's-employ Marco then butts in with more typical pro-HK government propaganda: "HK currently ranks 18th in the world according to the WHO, almost on a par with France and Switzerland but way behind other developed countries such as Japan, Finland and Belgium."

Obviously Marco � despite working for the government � is unaware that, in HK 'culture', most if not all suicides get put down as 'accidents', so as to save face and avoid shame (the exact opposite of Yakuza hits in Japan that get put down as suicides). Clearly Marco does not read the regular stories of people 'falling' out of (barred) windows, 'accidentally' drinking (six bottles of) household bleach, and 'mistakenly' slashing their own wrists (note the plural) whilst shaving...

Then we have yet more nonsense from the HK　government editor: "While there is undoubtedly a big gap between rich and poor, (and where isn't there?), HKers are well off compared with many nations around the world, and have a pretty good health system compared to, let's say, the USA."

First, it is not exactly difficult to have better health care than the US! The US has the highest infant mortality rates of the developed world; a reflection of their pathetic health care system　ｔｈｅｒｅ. The last figures I saw put Northern Ireland above the US in health care! Second, as regards the ridiculous and puerile comment about there being discrepancies everywhere in regards to wealth distribution (the old argument from universality, i.e., 'It's the same in the UK/the US/the 'West'/everywhere'), yes, there are indeed gaps between the rich and poor everywhere, but in HK such gaps are vastly more pronounced and exaggerated. Indeed, it is the largest gap in the entire region.

An article in the SCMP (25.10.08) entitled 'Hong Kong's wealth gap is biggest in Asia' notes that a report published by the UN Human Settlements Programme (UN-Habitat) showed the SAR to have a Gini coefficient (an indicator of income inequality, where 0 would mean that income was perfectly distributed and 1 would mean that a single individual had all the income) of 0.53. This of course is hardly surprising. After all, for whilst the countless Filipino 'domestic helpers' (present-day slaves) in Hong Kong earn a mere HK$3,600 a month (!), then-28-year-old political assistant-designate to the secretary for food and health, Paul Chan Chi-yuen pulls in between HK$134,150 and HK$163,960 a month � though of course "It was not out of any monetary consideration that I accepted this appointment" stated Chan Chi-yuen to the press (SCMP, 11.06.08, p.A3). We believe you, Paul.

Then the government editor tries to spread more slanderous, anti-PRC propaganda: "HK remains vastly more advanced than anywhere in China and to suggest that some parts of China are about to overhaul HK is laughable - just cross the border and take a look. Chronic poverty is plainly visible, far in excess of anything here."

Yes, and China has some 700 million farmers and has only just started to develop and industrialise so it is hardly surprising that some elements of HK executives (usually foreign passport-holders) are better off than some Mainlanders (usually farmers)! Is it just me that is having problems keeping a straight face here? How long did you live in China, Marco? Have you ever lived in China? Would, or could, you ever live in China, or wouldn't you be able to leave the sanctuary of your exclusively Western ex-pat prison of Lamma Island (aka 'Laaaah-ma')? Hehe, who knows? Maybe since you work for the government you may get a chance to relocate there! After all, I heard they were going to move quite a few governmental agencies over to the Mainland in order to save money and express loyalty to the 'Motherland'. That would be fun for you, wouldn't it? I wonder if the civil servants you work with will be laughing then?

Besides, many HKers are far worse off than many Mainlanders. In his book 'We deserve better: Hong Kong since 1997' the blogger Hemlock notes (p.188) that "As of 2006, over 25% of teenagers were living in low-income families (those on less than half the HK$16,000 median monthly income)". Many, many parts of China, such as Shanghai for example, have already overtaken HK in many respects, and that trend does not seem to show any signs of slowing down, let alone stopping.

Then Marco, the government editor, states that "HK has far fewer street beggars than most European countries, and many of those here are mainlanders in any case."

This is simply racist! You are suggesting that most beggars in HK are Mainlanders. Why? Is that because they are Mainlanders? You seem to have a problem with those next door from the PRC. Is this something you need to get help with? Don't worry, if your section of the government department you work for does indeed relocate you will have more than enough time to get used to living side by side with your inferiors.

As regards the fewer beggars than elsewhere comment, maybe on Lamma and Central (and the other exclusively Western ex-pat areas you cocoon yourself in). But, elsewhere in HK, such as Sham Shui Po, I see vastly more street beggars than on the streets of London, that is until the HK police kick them off the street.

[foreignDevil]

Back to topic..

... that FSI (foreign service institute) material is a goldmine. A bit old, but definitely worth exploring as a learning resource. I went through the Cantonese courses many years ago.

It is very dry material... so it requires a bit of discipline to go through it. But the endless drilling and prodding for response works.

A little warning, the material long ago passed into the public domain, but some companies have dressed it up a bit and are selling it for incredibly high prices on places like Amazon. The link provided leads to the free project... the guy running it is doing a great service.. salvaging and re-mastering old audio material and then putting it up on the site.