Job Discussion Forums

gordon1984 · Joined: 14 Apr 2009 Posts: 19

Hey, ok so had a read through all the post's again and had a little think about my options, even though I think I may be able to get a job with a basic online tefl or without, I think for me personally I would feel so much more comfortable if I had done a course which provided some classroom time, just to get a feel for what I was going into. I also think it would help me be a better teacher, so although I still can't hope to pay for a celta at the moment, I did remember an organisation that I used quite a lot in my old job when advising young people on how to fund courses and things, it's called ILA Scotland, and they will put �200 towards courses here in Scotland, but only the one's they work with. I had a search and they had all the i to i on's listed believe it or not and also one or twwo from college's and uni's here in Scotland.

http://www.ilascotland.org.uk/ILA/Templates/SearchForm.aspx?NRMODE=Published&NRORIGINALURL=%2fCourse%2bSearch%2fsearch%2ehtm&NRNODEGUID=%7bC727DF88-F26C-4EDD-86C6-B707E2C656C9%7d&NRCACHEHINT=Guest

Above is the link to the TEFL courses that ILA will part fund for me, could you guys tell me what you think? Also below I have put two links to courses that ILA will part fund, I was thinking of doing one of them just wanted some of your opinions.

http://www.ilascotland.org.uk/Course+Search/CourseDetails.htm?cid=EF1938F4-F61D-4459-BCFE-2175816A0C54

The link above is for the i to i weekend tefl course, it's �430 and ILA will put �200 towards it so I would put the rest which isn't a big issue I could afford the other �230 or so, what do you guy's think?

http://www.ilascotland.org.uk/Course+Search/CourseDetails.htm?cid=9BE7C6A2-A98F-45F2-8A1D-0383647FCCB4

This one is from the University, this course would actually cost me nothing as ILA would fund the whole amount for me.

If I was to do any of the above courses I would probably still look at doing a grammar awareness module as well to brush up on that.

Just listening to the advice I think it's pretty clear that most of you agree that a course with a practical element is best and I have to agree to be honest, but most of those course's I may find difficult to fund at the moment but the courses with ILA put them within reach, although if you guy's feel they wouldn't be worth it let me know.

Cheers

Gordon

father Mackenzie · Joined: 10 Oct 2008 Posts: 105 Location: Jakarta Barat

Have you started applying for Jobs yet? It might be worth starting to send your resume out to potential employers. If the organisation you take a teaching certificate with promise you work on completion of the training, be wary of the price and also the contract and what the contract states.
The reason you need to take a course with supervised teaching is so you have more awareness of what can happen in a class room. Teaching grammar is just a part of it.

gordon1984 · Joined: 14 Apr 2009 Posts: 19

Hi, I was wondering how long it would be between posting my resume/applying for jobs and actually starting a job roughly? Are slaries negotiable, is it the "done thing" to try and negotiate a higher salary, say if I was to be offered a position based on my CV as it is now, with no tefl and I said to the school I would commit to at least a 120hr tefl before I arrived, would that be grounds to negotiate a higher salary?

spiral78 · Joined: 05 Apr 2004 Posts: 11534 Location: On a Short Leash

Maybe you've mentioned where you want to go earlier in the thread?

Different regions have different customs/timing and requirements, obviously.

In Europe, the scenario you mention (getting an offer without cert and then negotiating a higher salary based on getting one) would not be accepted. The vast majority of newbies in Europe generally have the 120 hour on-site cert to begin with, so with anything less you would be far at the bottom of the hiring heap. It's also rare, and usually dodgy, do get any offer from abroad - employers want to see you standing before them, CV in hand, looking professional and reliable before they'll give you a second thought.

For this region, contract periods are generally Sept - June, so if you apply in August you would start relatively sooner - in May, much later, obviously.

If you're thinking of other places, the picture may be entirely different, of couse!

nickpellatt · Joined: 08 Dec 2006 Posts: 1522

I wrote quite a long reply to this ... and then my laptop crashed!

Anyway, of the courses you have posted links to, I would plump for the last one with the University, and the reasons for this are twofold.
i) it is realistic in its course description and suggests a course of such short duration is little more than an introduction.
ii) it doesnt require any investment, and as all the course listed arent going to provide a real usable qualification, choosing the cheapest option makes sense.

I know you keep coming back to i-i, and I am posting this in the hope that it will be picked up by other people in the future when discussing i-i and similar courses, but I really think they should be avoided.

As already stated earlier in the thread, I did complete a course with i-i about 2 years ago. I actually did two courses, as I took the basic 40 hour program and added the Business English Specialist module. They are cleverly marketing their program with an option of taking up to 120 hours to complete all their modules, which suggest a level of parity with the more recognisable qualifications. Unfortunately, this is marketing, and they dont compare.

My 40 hour course took around 10 hours to complete. The course is split into module and each requires an assignment to be submitted. None of the assignments appear to be things you can fail, as anything you submit is simply returned with comments allowing you to proceed to the next section. On the grammar section, the questions are in drop down boxes with a checking facility. You select answers from the drop down boxes and see if you have them correct. You DO need 100% to continue from this page, but all you need to do is keep changing the selections within the boxes until you reach the 100% mark. There is no learning involved.

The help with finding work is rather poor. They do include useful websites to search for employment, one of which is Daves ESL cafe. They are also keen to push their own programs which are often the voluntourism type, or the type where you pay a significant amount of money and receive a token salary in return.

They also give you an 'Online TEFL coursebook'. I have this in front of me now...its A5 sized and is 72 pages long. I have referred back to this book a few times in the last few years seeking ideas. It isnt very good at providing them in fairness. Looking through it now ... pages 37 - 39 cover games to use in the classroom. The entire list of games they offer is as follows - Alibi,Battleships, Bingo, Charades, Dominoes, Hangman, Pictionary, Snakes and Ladders, Tic Tac Toe, Trivial Pursuit, Twister, 20 questions, and Scrabble.

There is nothing there you cannot pick up from a website such as this. The instructions for each game arent very illuminating either.

The Business English module was even worse. I completed this in one evening, and there isnt even a book to refer back to.

The only positive thing from these courses is the DVD they send out which shows one 30 minute lesson. This was useful, and I used this as a blueprint for one of my early lesson plans. This isnt much to show for the outlay.

MY HONEST ADVICE IS TO AVOID THESE TYPE OF COURSES. WHILST THEY MAY BE BETTER THAN NOTHING, ITS ONLY BY A FRACTION.

People tend to think (sometimes understandably) that they cannot afford the time or cost of a one month intensive course, and so decide on this option instead as a cheaper alternative. Yes it is cheaper, but NO, it is not an alternative. It doesnt even compare in any way, shape or form.

After teaching for a few years, I then completed a Trinity Cert TESOL, the 120 hour intensive course. Now 40 hours plus a Business English module Vs 120 hours doesnt sound so different right? The reality is the online course was less than 15 hours work really.

The intensive course allowed me the opportunity to teach 10 lessons with real students. All these lessons were observed and commented upon. I also observed around 20 lessons myself, and was tasked to give feedback on them. In addition to this teaching practice, all the classes I attended as part of the course, were taught to us using many of the teaching techniques used in an EFL classroom, with the tutors using group and peer correction, elicitation techniques, etc. In addition, there was probably around 2 hours per day homework....maybe even more. So in actual fact, the intensive course requires 120 hours to be spent on site, but also requires around another 40 hours of work outside the classroom to complete the course.

So 10 hours in a bedroom alone using a laptop compares poorly to 120 hours onsite with tutors, other students, and language learners and an additional 40 hours off homework. (Many people will suggest it was a lot more than 40 hours of homework!)

Now, if you or anyone else really cant commit to the longer course, either financially or in terms of the time it consumes ... but you still wish to pursue EFL, I would honesty recommend getting involved with any charitable cause local to you that may offer something in terms of experience. Observing one lesson a week in the role of a teaching assistant will offer much more insight into EFL than an i-i or similar course does.

Purchasing a book like 'Learning Teaching' by Jim Scrivener will also offer as much insight into EFL as a 40 hour online course does. No, it offers more. I have this book, and can often refer back to it for ideas and inspiration ... which is more than can be said for my online course material.

Check you local telephone directories. Do you have private language schools or EFL training providers near you? If the answer is yes, then contact them. They may sometimes have open days when prospective CELTA/Trinity students are invited to visit and observe lessons. I did this prior to taking my Trinity course, and again...watching an EFL teaching in action for 30 minutes is more illuminating that an online course.

A final option might be to consider a summer job with a student organisation. Im lucky in that my seaside hometown has lots of foreign students that come to visit for short term holidays over the holiday seasons. These trips normally include lessons in the morning before sightseeing trips in the afternoon. Students often see these trips as a holiday first and foremost, so the lessons are often quite relaxed and conversational rather than being grammar intensive or geared towards IELTS and other exams.

I guess in summary, I am saying if you cannot do a genuine 120 hour course, there are alternatives. The online option generally isnt a very viable one in my opinion.

Two final points.

i) OP - to answer your last question ... some schools start all year round, private language colleges especially. The state schools I worked for in China would generally only take starters in Sep when the new school years begins.

ii) Why am I spending so much time writing these replies. Well, I am meant to be studying at the moment and I am procrastinating. Daves ESL cafe is a much more comfortable place to be when compared to the BNC corpus and concordance assignment on English Grammar that I am currently avoiding!

santi84 · Joined: 14 Mar 2008 Posts: 1317 Location: under da sea

Some food for thought,

When I originally tried to teach English in 2001/2002, I had no teacher education. It was a disaster, I hated it, and changed my major to something else. After a few years in a different (unrelated) career, I decided to go back and take several 4th year TESL courses plus an excellent 250 hour+ TESL certificate. I also purchased several good grammar books and studied hard. When I stepped back into the classroom, it was amazing. It was so different. I actually felt like a real teacher (finally). I would recommend for your own sake to take a proper course.

If you are only trying it for a year, you may end up hating it just because of insufficient training, not because of the job itself.

gordon1984 · Joined: 14 Apr 2009 Posts: 19

Hi, Santi I totally understand where your coming from, but I have teaching experience, I have posted my cv for people to have a look at, but what's confusing me is everyone saying I need to get classroom time and that it's so important-do I not already have that having already taught and been a training provider? Is an efl classroom different to any other classroom? I understand I haven't taught EFL, but in term's of planning a lesson, classroom management, managing challenging behaviour and creating a good learning environment, I feel I have experience there already.

Sure I realise doing it without a Celta or experience of EFL that it mean's im going to have to do a lot of learning on the job but I still feel I'll be a good teacher and be able to motivate my student's.

Cheers

Gordon

nickpellatt · Joined: 08 Dec 2006 Posts: 1522

It can be a big difference dude ... mainly with the grading of speech.

We are all creatures of habit, and in certain situations we tend to go on auto pilot and assume our 'role' at any given time.

Think of how a parents grades speech and uses a set register when speaking to their children.

Or how we may use a different grade or register when introduced to our employers wife.

If you have worked as a training provider or teacher in another environment, you will probably have assumed a register of speech that you use for this purpose. It would be 100% natural for you to fall into this familiar form / mode of speech when talking in class, and it may well be totally unsuitable for language learners.

You may also be used to training / teaching in an environment where the focus is very much on the teacher imparting information to the students, again this is something that may be quite unsuitable for language learners, when the focus should be less on the teacher, but more on the students interacting and using language.

It sounds crazy ... and you may well think "well, that wouldnt be me ... I never work on autopilot!", but this is only an honest appraisal of what I have seen before.

One of the chaps on my Trinity course was a very accomplised and professional presenter, having worked for many years in sales training. (He trained Estate Agents and made commercial sales presentations).

He was pretty terrible for a large portion of the course as he found it so hard to change the habits of twenty years of presentations and public speaking as his speech grading was unsuitable for language learners.

An EFL classroom is different, cos get it wrong...and your students wont understand you! And explaining things to them is a skill that takes some getting used to! It sounds obvious ... but its only when you see teaching at work in this environment that you 'get it'. Watching ppl teach English is the best learning tool available IMO.

My point is that EFL class time will be invaluable. Online course expenditure and information wont be. Ive been thinking about my earlier post quite a lot today...I have time on my hands LOL!

Im going to plug the 'learning teaching' book again. (I should have shares in this books sales really). The book is 430 pages long, and has section where it asks you to consider problems and solutions before continuing.

An online course takes perhaps 45 pages of this type of book, (not the same book but similar examples offered in the book) and delivers them to you online. it then has section where it asks you to solve problems before you continue.

The book is available for less than �20. The online course may cost �150.

The book has more content. The online course gives you a certificate most schools or employers wont recognise.

Justin Trullinger · Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 9:14 pm Post subject:

gordon1984 · Joined: 14 Apr 2009 Posts: 19

Hey

I totally agree with you guy's, but what I was meaning was in term's of being able to get up in front of a class and teach, motivate them, prepare lessons, plan lesson's and manage your student's doesn't really change, but the course content and how it is delivered would and I can see why you guy's would stress on class time to see how EFL teacher's deliver their lesson.

I already realised myself that my way of speaking would have to change in the classroom, im from Glasgow and have a strong accent and also us Glaswegians use our own slang, so I know that's something I would have to be aware of.

I may have touched on this in another one of my posts or most probably touched on little bit's here and there, but I was wanting to ask something just to try and get things tidy in my mind.......

I am going to do my best to get a course with a teaching elemnt if possible in term's of money, if not I will look into online courses that will help with my grammar and language awareness. What I want to know is because of my circumstances in terms of money and time I just want to try teaching out for a bit, after reading this forum I feel pretty confident in getting a paid position, I understand it won't be as well paid and the environment maybe not the best but that's something I have to accept with my circumstances. Can I ask, when you start at a school will I get a syllabus to teach from usually, and if so, with me not having EFL experience would good planning and prep for my lessons help me with that and also with me not being that confident on grammar and thing's would good planning and prep for lessons along with continued self study on the matter see me through along with just getting my feet wet and learning on the job as well, only until im sure it's for me then I will invest in further training? That's what I need to know before I go.

P.s I will buy that book over the weekend, im sure I'll find it, I will just have to look for your name under the author section haha lol just kidding, cheers

Gordon

[/quote]

spiral78 · Joined: 05 Apr 2004 Posts: 11534 Location: On a Short Leash

Trained and experienced TEACHERS from other fields of learning often struggle in a language learning classroom. Approaches and methods are simply very different. In many teaching contexts, in fact, it's rare to 'get up in front of a class...'

A real certification course not only offers you real time with real students in this field - but also feedback on how you're doing from experienced teacher trainers. It's this feedback that makes the experience invaluable - and necessary, if you expect to be an effective newbie level teacher.

Finally, I have to agree with you that y Very Happy

ou definitely need to improve your awareness of grammar and punctuation in English

nickpellatt · Joined: 08 Dec 2006 Posts: 1522

Buy that book ... and seek out a very simple students grammar book with work book and exercises.

An online course wont teach you grammar. A one month intensive course wont teach you grammar either. This is a common idea that people tend to have, but grammar tends to be something you learn from teaching it, and from self study. In lots of jobs, certainly in China anyway, focus is on communication and conversation rather than grammar. The role is more to engage students and let them or encourage them, to talk.

Its clear everyone thinks the one month course is the place to start, but you arent going to do that. Thats fine ... but dont both wasting money on an online course, because it wont offer anything useful, or nothing that you cannot learn from a couple of good books.

gordon1984 · Joined: 14 Apr 2009 Posts: 19

Hey, I know my grammar is not great in my posts purely because im always in a hurry writing them and never realised I was being graded ha lol........

I appreciate what you guys are saying but my question wasn't about courses, I know the Celta course is the way to go, but it's not feasible at the moment.

Im going to start a new thread with regards my question above but thank's for all the info, cheers

p.s will get that book, oh and spiral "get up in front of the class" was just a figure of speech, thanks, for, disecting, my, post, but, for, the, one, or, two, lines, of, advice, that, was, there, appreicated I see what you mean with getting feedback it can be invaluable(spiral, im, joking,)

But being serious here, thank's to everyone for all the info, it gave me lot to think about. In terms of courses I think I know what I need to do now, the Celta is just not feasible at the moment but will do it if teaching English is something I enjoy. I think I just need to know if it's possible for me to do this.

I started a new thread just to get feedback and see what people think.

As I say thanks for all the info

Gordon