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Yes Sir I Can Bogey
Joined: 23 Mar 2009
Posts: 201
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 Posted: Fri May 08, 2009 2:14 am Post subject: |
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| Katja, how can you say that 2,000 RMB is not much lower than 4,000 RMB? It is exactly half of the amount! |
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vikuk
Joined: 23 May 2007
Posts: 1842
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| Posted: Fri May 08, 2009 2:33 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| at universities in Western China, but will not last you long in Shanghai |
wont take you very far in Chengdu (the west) either - at the moment, with a year's aniversary of the quake coming up, every road to the west of this city has a police checkpoint to try stop any possible trouble/demo rolling into town (far more security than during Olympics or T-troubles) - to understand how the dirt is being swept under the carpet read this piece from yesterday -
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/world/2009/0507/1224246057778.html
Maybe a cynical member of this forum could be tempted to write - if you want to put more money into the pockets of the black-saloon car brigade - the corner-stone of the "fair-play everything-equal for everybody, no hint of corruption in this neck of the woods" gang - then go ahead and accept - 2000/month  |
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seagull
Joined: 12 Jun 2008
Posts: 38
Location: Perth, Australia
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| Posted: Fri May 08, 2009 3:45 am Post subject: |
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| Thanks for the feedback everyone. I've realised that TESOL isn't necessary in a lot of places and have applied directly with several universities. Already had some offers in remote cities (Nanyang, some place that starts with an "L" in Jiangsu) but hoping to land something in a semi-developed city (Chongqing, Chengdu, Wuxi, Suzhou etc) as I know the major cities like Beijing, Shanghai, Qingdao, Hangzhou, etc are generally out of reach for an inexperienced new starter. Xie xie nimen. |
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eddy-cool
Joined: 06 Jul 2008
Posts: 1008
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| Posted: Fri May 08, 2009 3:51 am Post subject: |
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| Katja84 wrote: |
Most universities want 12-month contracts, and if you decide you want to quit before it ends they normally ask you to pay a fee. So this may be an option if you're uncertain about sticking around for a year. Secondly, if you are a non-native speaker, black, or asian-looking, this may be a good way of getting a job where you would struggle otherwise.
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Sorry, but this post misrepresents the situation entirely.
No one that accepts a six-month contract has to settle for a below-minimum pay contract. As I said before, the absolute minimum has for many years stood at well above 2000.
Why would a Chinese educational institution put its students to the disadvantage of hiring inexperienced laowai teachers if that only saves them a few hundred kaui in monthlyh pay? Why hire an FT in the first place? Or are you suggesting laowais are useful figureheads?
And why would they pay a non-native FT less than the legal minimum? No one stands to gain anything by this arrangement. Most newly-arrived FTs are struggling with their Chinese students too, and often much more than 'non-native speakers'. |
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Fred Smith
Joined: 06 Dec 2008
Posts: 77
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| Posted: Fri May 08, 2009 5:16 am Post subject: Re: 2,000 RMB per month wage too low? |
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| seagull wrote: |
Hello,
I study Mandarin and am keen to work in China someday. I have a degree but no teaching experience. I was looking at at the following programme because they provide TEFL training and a placement at a school for 6-12 months.
http://www.teachandtravelchina.com/
The salary is 2,000 RMB per month which sounds quite low compared to what I read on this message board. However, as someone totally new to this, would you recommend this as a start to teaching in China? Or would it be better to look elsewhere?
Thanks for any feedback from any knowledgible posters. |
The truth is you should work for free or consider paying THEM to allow you to teach and get valuable experience. |
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joey2001
Joined: 26 Oct 2006
Posts: 697
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| Posted: Fri May 08, 2009 5:57 am Post subject: Re: 2,000 RMB per month wage too low? |
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| seagull wrote: |
The salary is 2,000 RMB per month which sounds quite low compared to what I read on this message board. |
2000 a month for a foreigner is not quite low but ridiculous! OK, if you want to regard it as training rather than a real job, it might be worth it to you. But for a salary it's extremely low. Depends on what you want! As someone already mentioned, you could make more teaching part-time on weekends only.  |
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nickpellatt
Joined: 08 Dec 2006
Posts: 1522
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| Posted: Fri May 08, 2009 8:19 am Post subject: |
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I had a quick look at the website. This program is something that seems to be aimed at (or is certainly taken up by) gap year students. As an alternative to the huge number of volunteer gap year programs, this looks like a good idea.
There are also a number of non native speakers offering testimony. This supports my feeling that the TEFL course probably isnt up to much. Whilst non native speakers can and do pass CELTA courses, they dont tend to make up the majority of classes. There is a breakdown of the course content, which looks good .... there is also a lot of talk about mandarin lessons, orientation, excursions and trips. This would also suggest that the teaching training is probably not of a high standard, and not very intensive (and possibly not much use).
This may also mean the certificate issued has no value either, and although it may be accepted elsewhere .... there is a greater chance that it will not be recognised in the future ... meaning if you decide to stay within EFL ... further expense and a recognised cert may be needed.
The testimonials are positive overall ... but there are a number of indicators in the text that point towards problems. 'Kindergarten is not my first choice', 'no one can speak english', 'class sizes are 60 students'.
I did a similar program when I first came to China. Mine was a volunteer program and I had to pay �699 plus my own flight costs to participate, so I do recognise some of the elements in this program. My program didnt really represent value for money, and it didnt offer all that was promised either. (I did have a nice refund for some of the monies paid)
What it did do though, was offer me a path into China ... with a certain amount of security to begin with. It also offered me a chance to have a short 3 month adventure that was free of any real worries or responsibilties too. This is where the value to these programs come in ... and why they are so popular with gap year students. Im going to sit on the fence with this one really. It is what it is.
For me now? I would never consider this type of program, as a now experienced teacher, who has gained additional qualifications since my volunteer experience ... it is a bad, no ... ridiculous program that I would never entertain, and offers ZERO benefit.
For someone with no experience whatsover, and perhaps a greater desire to travel China as opposed to teaching here .... someone who is seeking a long holiday or adventure ... its not a bad program. |
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Katja84
Joined: 06 May 2007
Posts: 165
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| Posted: Fri May 08, 2009 9:46 am Post subject: |
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| eddy-cool wrote: |
Sorry, but this post misrepresents the situation entirely.
No one that accepts a six-month contract has to settle for a below-minimum pay contract. As I said before, the absolute minimum has for many years stood at well above 2000.
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People that are offered six-month contracts do not have to settle below the wage that is offered for those staying for a year (but they may lose out on flights) but the difficulty tends to be to get that six-month contract in the first place. My point was that a lot of universities (though not all) ask for a one-year contract. Therefore, a guaranteed six-month contract -even for a lesser pay - may be preferable to a one-year contract where you end up paying $2000 (the SAFEA maximum) to end the contract prematurely.
| Quote: |
| Why would a Chinese educational institution put its students to the disadvantage of hiring inexperienced laowai teachers if that only saves them a few hundred kaui in monthlyh pay? Why hire an FT in the first place? Or are you suggesting laowais are useful figureheads? |
I am suggesting that many Chinese people seem to think that anyone that knows the subject in question (in this case, English) can make a good teacher irrespective of experience and education. That's why the difference in salary between people who have a BA and a PhD is so low, and that's why there is hardly no difference in salary between those with a relevant degree and those with a degree in physics. And yes, I am surprised that anyone that has lived in China would think that the universities do not view laowais as useful figureheads.
| Quote: |
| And why would they pay a non-native FT less than the legal minimum? No one stands to gain anything by this arrangement. Most newly-arrived FTs are struggling with their Chinese students too, and often much more than 'non-native speakers'. |
While I don't know much about the legal minimum, are you suggesting that non-native speakers in China are paid as much as native speakers are? If that's the case at your universities, that's great, but I can assure you many universities do pay non-native speakers less. |
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kungfucowboy83
Joined: 25 Jan 2006
Posts: 479
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| Posted: Fri May 08, 2009 10:06 am Post subject: |
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| as I know the major cities like Beijing, Shanghai, Qingdao, Hangzhou, etc are generally out of reach for an inexperienced new starter. |
that's not true in Qingdao at all, i got my first job there and i know plenty of other people who did too.heck the univeristies here are so low paying (but still way above your 2000rmb a month) that they have to hire newbies or they would have no teachers, same with a lot of the lower level language centers. |
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xiao51
Joined: 06 Feb 2009
Posts: 208
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| Posted: Fri May 08, 2009 11:07 am Post subject: ... |
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| Katja84 wrote: |
There are a number of circumstances under which the above may be a good deal. Firstly, if you want to teach for only six months to get a feel of things before accepting a 12-month contract, this might be an option. Most universities want 12-month contracts, and if you decide you want to quit before it ends they normally ask you to pay a fee. So this may be an option if you're uncertain about sticking around for a year. Secondly, if you are a non-native speaker, black, or asian-looking, this may be a good way of getting a job where you would struggle otherwise.
2000 is not much lower than average starting salaries (3000-4000 for white native speakers) at universities in Western China, but will not last you long in Shanghai. |
There are absolutely NO circumstances under which you should even consider entertaining such an offer, not for more than 1/10 of a nanosecond. Contrary to what the poster above has written, ESL jobs in China can still be had rather readily and if you check all of the bulletin boards / sites / agents' sites '/ portals this week and next week, you will note that the hiring season is going on in high gear. Even with relatively no credentials or little experience you should still be able to find a job paying at least RMB 4,000 - RMB 5,000 per month.
RMB 2,000 per month will get you nowhere, except to the almshouse. And frankly, Katja84, I cringed when I read the comments about "blacks, Asians, newcomers" or whatever. I have known many persons of all the categories you mentioned making RMB 10,000 per month or even more.
Last edited by xiao51 on Sat May 09, 2009 1:31 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Katja84
Joined: 06 May 2007
Posts: 165
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| Posted: Fri May 08, 2009 11:58 am Post subject: Re: ... |
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| xiao51 wrote: |
| Contrary to what the poster above has written, ESL jobs in China can still be had rather readily and if you check all of the bulletin boards / sites / agents' sites '/ portals this week and next week, you will note that the hiring season is going on in high gear. [...] RMB 2,000 per month will get you nowhere, except to the almshouse. And frankly, Katja84, I cringed when I read the comments about "blacks, Asians, newcomers" or whatever. I have known many persons of all the categories you mentioned making RMB 10,000 per month or even more. |
Firstly, I have never suggested the above person would not be able to get a job. My two conditions under which he might want to consider this organization were quite clear (6-month contract or black/asian/non-native) and even then with a bit more effort he might well be able to get a job.
Secondly, it is not impossible for blacks, Asians or non-native speakers (who said anything about newcomers?) to get well-paying jobs, but it is difficult and will most likely require far more applications and even then there is no guarantee. As the excellent middlekingdomlife.com/guide/ says,
"highly qualified foreign teachers, particularly of black and Chinese descent, as well as those from countries other than the aforementioned five, have reported varying degrees of difficulty finding employment in China, although a few do with a great deal of persistence, especially if they happen to already be in China.
Foreign teachers of Asian and African descent should avoid private language schools altogether and should focus their job search on public (government) schools and universities only. [...] Unfortunately, Western-born Chinese do face a particularly difficult situation in China more so than any other group of foreigners seeking employment. The reality is that most mainland Chinese do not consider Western-born Chinese to be either fully Western or Chinese and so they often encounter biases and discriminatory practices that most Caucasian foreign teachers do not have to deal with. One American-born Chinese girl we worked with, whose ancestors were originally from Guangdong province, was in tears most of time as the Chinese would often chastise her for not being a "real Chinese," yet, at the same time, the parents would frequently complain to the private school's administration that they shouldn't have to pay a higher rate for classes with a foreign teacher because the "Chinese girl" was not a "real foreigner." This bias is highly prevalent across China and, again, may be overcome through personal appearances at public schools and universities."
This tallies with my own experience from China, and that of many others on this board who have had difficulties finding employment due to not being white or a native-speaker. Sometimes an organization like this one can provide an easier way of finding a first job for people who would otherwise struggle finding a job.
But I agree with other posters on this board that if the original poster is white and a native speaker, and if he is looking for a one-year contract, it makes considerably more sense to apply on one's own. |
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Katja84
Joined: 06 May 2007
Posts: 165
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| Posted: Fri May 08, 2009 11:59 am Post subject: Re: ... |
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| xiao51 wrote: |
| Contrary to what the poster above has written, ESL jobs in China can still be had rather readily and if you check all of the bulletin boards / sites / agents' sites '/ portals this week and next week, you will note that the hiring season is going on in high gear. [...] RMB 2,000 per month will get you nowhere, except to the almshouse. And frankly, Katja84, I cringed when I read the comments about "blacks, Asians, newcomers" or whatever. I have known many persons of all the categories you mentioned making RMB 10,000 per month or even more. |
Firstly, I have never suggested the above person would not be able to get a job. My two conditions under which he might want to consider this organization were quite clear (6-month contract or black/asian/non-native) and even then with a bit more effort he might well be able to get a job.
Secondly, it is not impossible for blacks, Asians or non-native speakers (who said anything about newcomers?) to get well-paying jobs, but it is difficult and will most likely require far more applications and even then there is no guarantee. As the excellent middlekingdomlife.com/guide/ says,
"highly qualified foreign teachers, particularly of black and Chinese descent, as well as those from countries other than the aforementioned five, have reported varying degrees of difficulty finding employment in China, although a few do with a great deal of persistence, especially if they happen to already be in China.
Foreign teachers of Asian and African descent should avoid private language schools altogether and should focus their job search on public (government) schools and universities only. [...] Unfortunately, Western-born Chinese do face a particularly difficult situation in China more so than any other group of foreigners seeking employment. The reality is that most mainland Chinese do not consider Western-born Chinese to be either fully Western or Chinese and so they often encounter biases and discriminatory practices that most Caucasian foreign teachers do not have to deal with. One American-born Chinese girl we worked with, whose ancestors were originally from Guangdong province, was in tears most of time as the Chinese would often chastise her for not being a "real Chinese," yet, at the same time, the parents would frequently complain to the private school's administration that they shouldn't have to pay a higher rate for classes with a foreign teacher because the "Chinese girl" was not a "real foreigner." This bias is highly prevalent across China and, again, may be overcome through personal appearances at public schools and universities."
This tallies with my own experience from China, and that of many others on this board who have had difficulties finding employment due to not being white or a native-speaker. Sometimes an organization like this one can provide an easier way of finding a first job for people who would otherwise struggle finding a job.
But I agree with other posters on this board that if the original poster is white and a native speaker, and if he is looking for a one-year contract, it makes considerably more sense to apply on one's own. |
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vikuk
Joined: 23 May 2007
Posts: 1842
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| Posted: Fri May 08, 2009 12:03 pm Post subject: |
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| in a semi-developed city (Chongqing, Chengdu, Wuxi, Suzhou etc) |
Chengdu -semi developed 
Semi-developed in Chengdu equates to - 2 Ferrari/Maserati dealerships - 1 Bentley - 1 Rolls - 1 Lamborghini.
And don't fool yourself into low wages in the thought that your going to be aiding the impoverished - as ever as an FT there�ll be a 99.9% certainty you'll be teaching the kids of the wealthier classes - and your slaving on 2000/month will only aid the bank-balance of your employer!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
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Katja84
Joined: 06 May 2007
Posts: 165
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| Posted: Fri May 08, 2009 12:04 pm Post subject: Re: ... |
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| xiao51 wrote: |
| RMB 2,000 per month will get you nowhere, except to the almshouse. |
I found 800 yuan was perfectly enough living in Ningxia four years ago. Prices have changed, but I still think 2000 would be enough to live on (indeed, the majority of Chinese people living on salaries well below 2000 RMB are not in the almshouse), but obviously that depends on personal circumstances (flights, loans at home, family, location). |
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vikuk
Joined: 23 May 2007
Posts: 1842
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| Posted: Fri May 08, 2009 12:10 pm Post subject: |
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| I found 800 yuan was perfectly enough living in Ningxia four years ago. Prices have changed, but I still think 2000 would be enough to live on (indeed, the majority of Chinese people living on salaries well below 2000 RMB are not in the almshouse), but obviously that depends on personal circumstances (flights, loans at home, family, location). |
And I'm sure a lot of very greedy, exploitative, money loving employers would agree with you |
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