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Adeem
Joined: 02 Jun 2007
Posts: 163
Location: Where da teachin' is
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 Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 2:36 am Post subject: |
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| People in mid-rung positions and those further down do not 'have ideas' or 'work out problems'; rather they simply follow orders. That is what they are there for. If they do have ideas and what-not they certainly wont ever express them as a) it will cause loss of face to those above, and b) someone else will take the credit, and c) if the idea falls flat on its face and things don't pan out as planned/expected than the person whose idea it was is going to find themselves on a sticky wicket, so why take the risk? It is vastly simpler �and safer � to keep one's mouth shut and get your wage every month |
Very well explained, sir. Employees have no other functions in some places than to be yes men for their superiors, and to find ways of doing as little work as possible during their long working hours. Their is no benefit forthcoming to them as a result of working hard, so this is their version of 'working smart'.
However, as my wife reports daily about her work, there is a great deal of industry and hard work going on at Chinese companies and schools. Much of this revolves around how to suck up to the boss sufficiently to gain yourself favour, and how to stab your workmates in the back most effectively whilst making yourself look good. This kind of internecine skulduggery is extremely hard work, and extremely destructive, but unfortunately in China, it gets results for the successful protagonist. Such things happen everywhere in the world, but never in my limited experience have I seen so much time and effort afforded to intriguing and flattering. The behaviour of fawning courtiers springs to mind..
Abilities outside of these limited areas, such as the abilities to think and do your job, are very much secondary. |
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Silent Shadow
Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Posts: 380
Location: A stones throw past the back of beyond
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| Posted: Fri May 01, 2009 3:53 am Post subject: Re: interesting article about Chinese universities: OVERSUPP |
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| Yes Sir I Can Bogey wrote: |
| Silent Shadow wrote: |
| What do employers want? They want students who have acquired the ability to think. Young people who can analyse problems intelligently, and work out practical solutions. Young people with imagination who can come up with creative ideas that can help their company make more money. They want young people who can organize those ideas and express them in a clear, detailed, and concise way. They want young people who can put into practice what they have studied. Young people who have been trained to be responsible, patient, independent and confident. Graduates, who can use their initiative and think on their feet. If you were a manager or owner of a company would you not want employees with the above qualities and skills? |
No, I wouldn't, at least not in China. Your comments betray a severe lack of understanding as to 'how things work in China'. If things worked as you assume and state above, then present-day China wouldn't still essentially be a Third World state after its much-touted '5,000 years of undisturbed civilisation', would it? People in mid-rung positions and those further down do not 'have ideas' or 'work out problems'; rather they simply follow orders. That is what they are there for. If they do have ideas and what-not they certainly wont ever express them as a) it will cause loss of face to those above, and b) someone else will take the credit, and c) if the idea falls flat on its face and things don't pan out as planned/expected than the person whose idea it was is going to find themselves on a sticky wicket, so why take the risk? It is vastly simpler �and safer � to keep one's mouth shut and get your wage every month. China is a 'top-down' society, and the workplace mirrors this. In fact, you could aptly describe the average Chinese company like an army - orders come down from above and no one can even so much as open their mouth without permission, and could never even dream of 'making a suggestion' to an officer or, if you yourself are an officer, to someone of higher rank.
You also have to add to this lot the problems of fraud and corruption. After all, lots of people knew about and were involved in the melamine in milk scandal, and the chalk dust being sold as baby milk powder scandal, and the scandal of the jerry built schools in Sichuan. If, as you claim, young employees were meant or were able to 'analyse problems intelligently' and 'work out practical solutions' and could speak freely do you not think that these horrific events would not have taken place? |
On the contrary, I think it's you who doesn't understand China today!. 5000 years of history has nothing to do with it. The point is, China today, in 2009 is in the midst of great change and development. Haven't you noticed?
Employers of businesses, especially those in more developed regions, want people who can help them make money, or at least people who can take on enough responsibility so as to set their employers free to make money. In fact, postgraduates in China often need to be more independent in their workplace than said in British institutions. Why? Because it is the practice of modern Chinese employers, to "Delegate" a lot of their work. Young people in their first job all over China (those lacking sufficient guanxi, at least), can be heard crying and complaining about their heavy workload, because their immediate bosses delegate much of the work that they normally do, to them.
In my college, I'm astounded at how much work the newly graduated employees have to do each day. In the FL department the young secretary in her first job out of college does so much work that is normally carried out by the dean that many foreign employees at my school, work one or two years here without even knowing the dean's name, never mind meeting her. As the dean, also teaches, and is often at meetings guess what our young secretary needs an abundance of to survive? That's correct, some initiative and the ability of independence is essential under those circumstances. Also, when the dean is in yet another meeting or is taking a class, and thus is unable to receive a phone call, guess what our young recently graduated secretary needs now? Yep? You're right. Problem-solving ability and heaps of patience will certainly do the trick.
It is also common in today's China to see postgraduates working in the foreign affairs department in administration. In my college, again these young people do a lot of the work that is usually reserved for their boss, a professor. Why? Because if he's not taking a class, or doing some research, he's either on the way to, at, or coming back from a meeting. Again, qualities and skills, like being responsible, independent, patient, confident, being able to use your initiative, and the ability to solve problems, come in handy. Do you honestly believe these young people could survive in these environments without the ability to think, and think well? Don't you think that their superiors are grateful when they display those skills: never having to worry about leaving their young charges alone for much of the time? These scenes are being played out in workplaces, schools and institutions all over China!
An undergraduate in my college came to my classroom last semester, terribly disappointed, because she had been turned down for a job interview with a foreign trade company. What was the reason? Her English communication skills were not up to scratch, even though she is an English-major who has been studying the language for about eleven years. I've had several others complaining to me or my wife about the unbearable, and challenging workloads that they have in their first jobs and many of them quickly quit, because they can't cope with all the sudden responsibility. Many of them lack both the English language and coping skills necessary to succeed. As I mentioned in my previous post, how will �Making lessons as easy as possible� help them to acquire those skills? My students, who are English majors in a region that is renowned for foreign trade and business, certainly need these skills especially if they work for Western employers, which some do.
China is changing. Your view of China is out-dated, stereotypical, and unthinking. Open your eyes, look around and get with it. Stop trotting out the common ex-pat party line. What you said may describe the China of the past, but it by no means describes aptly the modern, thriving, fast-developing money-mad society we have today, and the resulting demands it puts on young graduates. Talk to young Chinese people- graduates, and hear what they say about what employers demand of them today. Listen to what they cope with and think about the causes of their inability to cope with their demanding workloads. Young people in China today, more than at another time, need as many skills and good personal qualities as they can acquire if they want to be able to succeed in Chinese society. Now who's willing to/ should help them acquire said skills? |
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Sugar Magnolia
Joined: 14 Oct 2008
Posts: 233
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| Posted: Fri May 01, 2009 4:33 am Post subject: |
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"think about the causes of their inability to cope"
I wonder what they are?
Perhaps their ingrained thought processes still developing after 5000 years of illustrious, historical brainwashing?
I think this about sums it up -
"..... Her English communication skills were not up to scratch, even though she is an English-major who has been studying the language for about eleven years."
Yunqi
Last edited by Sugar Magnolia on Fri May 01, 2009 4:43 am; edited 1 time in total |
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vikuk
Joined: 23 May 2007
Posts: 1842
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| Posted: Fri May 01, 2009 4:38 am Post subject: |
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| or coming back from a meeting |
The good ol' Chinese meeting - that pose such high demands on those poor bosses, but are surely so productive in their output 
The pinnacle of a typical Chinese career could be that stage of your professional life when you can throw all your workload onto one of your minions - with an "I'm going to a meeting" order
Maybe in some workplaces the "typical" I'm writing about is starting to evolve into something more efficient - but normal on the ground evidence, seems to indicate that change is at a very early stage of development  |
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Silent Shadow
Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Posts: 380
Location: A stones throw past the back of beyond
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| Posted: Fri May 01, 2009 4:45 am Post subject: |
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| Adeem wrote: |
| Quote: |
| People in mid-rung positions and those further down do not 'have ideas' or 'work out problems'; rather they simply follow orders. That is what they are there for. If they do have ideas and what-not they certainly wont ever express them as a) it will cause loss of face to those above, and b) someone else will take the credit, and c) if the idea falls flat on its face and things don't pan out as planned/expected than the person whose idea it was is going to find themselves on a sticky wicket, so why take the risk? It is vastly simpler �and safer � to keep one's mouth shut and get your wage every month |
Very well explained, sir. Employees have no other functions in some places than to be yes men for their superiors, and to find ways of doing as little work as possible during their long working hours. Their is no benefit forthcoming to them as a result of working hard, so this is their version of 'working smart'.
However, as my wife reports daily about her work, there is a great deal of industry and hard work going on at Chinese companies and schools. Much of this revolves around how to suck up to the boss sufficiently to gain yourself favour, and how to stab your workmates in the back most effectively whilst making yourself look good. This kind of internecine skulduggery is extremely hard work, and extremely destructive, but unfortunately in China, it gets results for the successful protagonist. Such things happen everywhere in the world, but never in my limited experience have I seen so much time and effort afforded to intriguing and flattering. The behaviour of fawning courtiers springs to mind..
Abilities outside of these limited areas, such as the abilities to think and do your job, are very much secondary. |
You've missed the point of the article. the problem in today's China is that education is stuck in a rut while the rest of society has moved, and is moving on.
China has changed, but it's education system has not changed with it.
The needs of employers has changed, but Chinese education has not changed enough to meet those needs.
Contrary to what you say, in a thriving business economy where everything is about the mighty dollar, employers need young people who can think, work independently, take on responsibility, and believe it or not, use a bit of initiative. |
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vikuk
Joined: 23 May 2007
Posts: 1842
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| Posted: Fri May 01, 2009 5:20 am Post subject: |
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ohh you must be talking about that change that brought the city masses out of their mindless TV soap/mahjong hibernation - and has created a fast acting, worldly, democratic, free-speaking, responsibility seeking, problem solving, love thy neighbor and your local environment - caring society.
Things of course take longer out on the land - but since this is a worker�s paradise and all (cheap to employ) hands are needed at the chosen areas of development rather then the cabbage patch - these guys must traveling towards the big population centers � to clean, cook and build out of a love for their urban comrades!!!!
By the way Silent - when, in your job, you need something like a new pack of paperclips - how much permission do you have to seek to spend company funds on this undertaking (here the mearest Mao is mighty - people can spend hours argueing over them) - or do you just bite the bullet and buy them yourself |
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Moon Over Parma
Joined: 20 May 2007
Posts: 819
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| Posted: Fri May 01, 2009 5:42 am Post subject: |
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| brsmith15 wrote: |
Some need moe than "education." |
I think they need more Larry or Shemp, personally.
Okay, stooges aside, I agree with what you said (that I snipped).
Lots of emphasis on Maoist dogma and very little on basic hygiene and sanitary standards in China. Lots of talk about the nation "developing," but little actual development. Cement skyscrapers and mp4 players are not "development ." Of course, teachers rarely teach here. They simply repeat the same old song and dance, which in turn the students memorize via rote. |
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Moon Over Parma
Joined: 20 May 2007
Posts: 819
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| Posted: Fri May 01, 2009 5:52 am Post subject: |
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| vikuk wrote: |
A glut of unemployed dissatisfied youth has been, at least in some parts of the world, the catalyst for exciting anti-establishment movements, with their own unique art-scenes, that have been the precursors for important social evolution - but in China - well we have the internet cafe, endless soaps on TV, food at demand from mummy and that dream that carries you to sleep at night - you're going to make it big through as little effort as possible  |
That's not entirely untrue, but it's not right, either. There is a thriving, underground music scene in China. The same applies to art, and it's not just in Beijing, or Shanghai. Believe it or not, even backwater shit holes like Nanchang have a punk rock scene.
One afternoon spent exploring Neocha contradicts a lot of what you're saying.
When the going is lifeless: go underground. It's there. Perhaps you haven't dug deep enough. The "but in China" bit about creature comforts: applies to pretty much every developed nation, so it's a moot point and works against your argument. Just because YOU don't see it, doesn't mean it's not there. |
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vikuk
Joined: 23 May 2007
Posts: 1842
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| Posted: Fri May 01, 2009 6:39 am Post subject: |
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| One afternoon spent exploring Neocha contradicts a lot of what you're saying |
My comments are aimed at society in large and mainstream youth norms (just as the same type of comment could apply to large number of do nuthing lard-asses we have back home) - but at least back home the rebel can easily find a voice, while here - well rays of light are always appearing through tiny cracks!!!!! |
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evaforsure
Joined: 26 Jun 2004
Posts: 1217
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| Posted: Fri May 01, 2009 7:09 am Post subject: |
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| A glut of unemployed dissatisfied youth has been, at least in some parts of the world, the catalyst for exciting anti-establishment movements, |
Their anti-attitudes may be the reason they are unemployed...most of the folks involved with the Chinese underground movenment in Art and Music .. work....movements dont have to be anti to be exciting which is in my mind is more about the reality of the scene in Beijig then in postering punk prose about how unfair the world is...as far as recient examples of unemployed dissatisfied youth developing a scene.. sometimes they just employ their talents in pursuit of "looting" ala the last twenty years, youth unemployment has become a major issue of the French labour market situation and has been noted as a major contributor of the unrest...and riots.. |
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Silent Shadow
Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Posts: 380
Location: A stones throw past the back of beyond
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| Posted: Fri May 01, 2009 7:37 am Post subject: |
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| vikuk wrote: |
ohh you must be talking about that change that brought the city masses out of their mindless TV soap/mahjong hibernation - and has created a fast acting, worldly, democratic, free-speaking, responsibility seeking, problem solving, love thy neighbor and your local environment - caring society.
Things of course take longer out on the land - but since this is a worker�s paradise and all (cheap to employ) hands are needed at the chosen areas of development rather then the cabbage patch - these guys must traveling towards the big population centers � to clean, cook and build out of a love for their urban comrades!!!!
By the way Silent - when, in your job, you need something like a new pack of paperclips - how much permission do you have to seek to spend company funds on this undertaking (here the mearest Mao is mighty - people can spend hours argueing over them) - or do you just bite the bullet and buy them yourself |
You're going off track, Vik.
My comments are in relation to the needs and requirements of employers in China, today. I'm not talking about society in general. I know China has a long way to go, hence I said "It's changing".
You have reminded me of a college I worked at before where I nearly came to blows with a dean about acess to photo copies for my students. If I wanted something legible printed on something other than what seemed like recycled toilet paper, then I or my students had to pay for it myself/ourselves. I don't think the average salary warrants us paying for essential basics. The college had its pluses, but that was one of the reasons that I moved on. |
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vikuk
Joined: 23 May 2007
Posts: 1842
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| Posted: Fri May 01, 2009 8:21 am Post subject: |
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| Their anti-attitudes may be the reason they are unemployed...most of the folks involved with the Chinese underground movenment in Art and Music .. work....movements dont have to be anti to be exciting which is in my mind is more about the reality of the scene in Beijig then in postering punk prose about how unfair the world is...as far as recient examples of unemployed dissatisfied youth developing a scene.. sometimes they just employ their talents in pursuit of "looting" ala the last twenty years, youth unemployment has become a major issue of the French labour market situation and has been noted as a major contributor of the unrest...and riots.. |
Eva I'll be interested in reading your next posts on your exciting life among the unemployed youth of France - and how it compares with your personal dealings with the avant garde youth in Beijing, Doubtless your expertise in these matters also stems from a close contact with the London punk scene of the seventies - amazing the kind of folk we find writing in these forums
As for me � well my remarks were just off the cuff �and originate from the kind of street observations, that, in my neck of the woods, don�t pick up too much of an alternative youth vibe (and I doubt many other readers of these forums ever do either) |
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vikuk
Joined: 23 May 2007
Posts: 1842
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| Posted: Fri May 01, 2009 8:27 am Post subject: |
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| You have reminded me of a college I worked at before where I nearly came to blows with a dean about acess to photo copies for my students. If I wanted something legible printed on something other than what seemed like recycled toilet paper, then I or my students had to pay for it myself/ourselves. I don't think the average salary warrants us paying for essential basics. The college had its pluses, but that was one of the reasons that I moved on. |
Don't look like I was that off track - I see that Silent has also met up with some of the serious obtacles that seem to slow down any form of change
By the way Silent - being employed is an important social function - can't divorce the changes in the work place (new demands of employment) with social change - the two go hand in hand!!!!! After all if the education system starts to breed a generation of imaginative problem solvers - their imaginations and problem solving skills won't be turned off when they leave the work place. In certain countries - excessive imagination and thought, analysing problems in a logical manner, rather than using set and fixed method to solve them, deviating from a certain set-line - could be seen as a bad thing. |
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Hansen
Joined: 13 Oct 2008
Posts: 737
Location: central China
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| Posted: Fri May 01, 2009 9:27 am Post subject: |
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No Renaissance in China comparable to that of the West. Michelangelo, DaVinci, Luther, and a host of others restored the dignity to manual labor which it rightly deserves. Another benefit of the JudaeoChristian heritage which is absent from China.
A recent movie on Eichmann included a scene in which the Israeli attorney prosecuting Eichmann is asked about his barber's license. He responded that his wife's parents insisted that he have a trade before they would allow them to marry.
An acquaintance of mine has a son who spent the entire last year loafing around, playing cards, and so forth. He is a university graduate. His gf, who was helping to support him and is a very lovely and diligent worker, did not attend university; consequently the loafer's mother did not consider her a suitable match for her bum of a son.
The value system of the people here is strange indeed. I teach teenage girls in a nursing school. Finding a job after graduation is very expensive and the future is uncertain; however, when I suggest that some of the students who obviously are not interested in the subject and would be a menace in any hospital, go to beauty college, the idea is met with disdain, as too low on the social ladder.
I guess that turning tricks for a hospital president in exchange for a job is more high class than actually using one's skills to earn a living.
An acquaintance of mine owns a successful beauty salon. Her workers, nearly all guys with the weird hairdos, earn as much as 3,000RMB a month on a good month. They average probably close to 2,000RMB/ monthly. Few nurses from my school will approach that in their career as nurses. |
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Shan-Shan
Joined: 28 Aug 2003
Posts: 1074
Location: electric pastures
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