Job Discussion Forums

[johnslat]

Dear cassava,
You seem to be the minority opinion here, which doesn't necessarily make you wrong. However, in my nineteen years of working in the Kingdom, I did have some colleagues who were Jewish, but who did NOT leave the question blank and filled in "Christian."
And, from everything I learned during those nineteen years, I very strongly suspect that leaving the space blank would simply be asking for trouble.

But I could be wrong, of course.

Regards,
John

[sheikh radlinrol]

Dear John
It's true that being in the minority doesn't make Cassava wrong but surely if you say ''Christian'' then you WON'T have difficulties. If you leave it blank or say ''Personal matter'', you MAY have difficulties.
In any case, once inside the Kingdom your Saudi students and colleagues will assume you ARE a Christian and just might want to discuss it.
It would be unwise in that situation to say ''My religious beliefs are private''. Wouldn't it?

[cassava]

I suppose that we have all had different experiences. However, I don't know which ones are more representative of the true state of affairs as far as the visa application process is concerned. I have simply recounted various incidents which I experienced when I lived in Saudi Arabia.

Nevertheless, I am bothered by the whole notion that it is somehow proper to tell lies, no matter how trivial, on an important application form when your signature at the end of the form is supposed to attest to the fact that all the statements you have made are truthful.

I suppose I could be accused of hyper-sensitivity and there might be some truth to that. The explanation might stem from the fact that before I went to Saudi, I was the manager of a major project in another Gulf country where part of my job involved recruiting ESL teachers from the US, Canada and the UK. I was frequently shocked and appalled at the fabrications, misrepresentations, falsifications and outright lies that potential teachers included on their CVs.

Ever since that time, I have always thought it best to tell the truth regardless of the consequences and to be blunt, even brutally blunt, when the situation seems to warrant it. At the risk of appearing naive I simply have to state that I prefer to be honest rather than to be disingenuous.

[johnslat]

Dear cassava,
" . . . and the truth shall set you free" - most likely, free of most jobs in the Kingdom.
Personally, I think that any employer who asks personal questions that are completely irrelevant to my qualifications, experience and/or abilities as a teacher fully deserves any phony answer he/she gets.
I'd feel exactly the same way if questions were asked about, say, my sexual orientation (which, by the way, is "straight") or any other inappropriate (dare I write it?) queries.
Regards,
John

[Deicide]

In any event....I think I will be looking (far)east...thanks for the info guys...

[johnslat]

Dear Decide,
The best wherever your search may take you. But remember - if it is written that you shall work in the Kingdom, it will happen.
It's all inshallah (Hmm, maybe I WAS there too long.)
Regards,
John

[trapezius]

cassava, no offense intended, but I can come up with many many hypothetical situations where you would lie, situations where any real human would lie.

Sometimes, you just have to tell a white lie to protect yourself, when you are innocent.

[cmp45]

[Cleopatra]

[Green Acres]

Wouldn't leaving the blank empty be a modest attempt at being agnostic. At least in terms of a personal or professional point of view, couldn't a person be seeking truth and thus desire to work in KSA in an effort to learn more about Islam?

I think leaving the issue open is exactly the type of response that is warranted from any student of the universe, and certainly, if one is well studied and is looking to further their education, then they would be learning more about the religion and customs of the host country.

In western countries, such entries are omitted since it is illegal to ask such questions in the first place. I have just ignored the question, since I don't believe it to be of any importance to anyone but me (and God). I cannot believe that it would be significant to anyone else, yet who can be sure?

[Cleopatra]

[cassava]

Let me state, for the record, that many years ago when I filled in my visa application form to work in Saudi Arabia, I simply wrote N/A (Not Applicable) on that section of the form which inquired about my religion. My application was accepted, I was granted a visa and I spent a number of quite enjoyable years in the Kingdom. If my application had been rejected, I would simply have gone somewhere else.

Some posters have pointed out that my opinion on this topic constitutes a minority view in this forum. That may very well be the case, but as Gandhi used to say, "Even if you are a minority of one, the truth is still the truth."

I am fully aware of the fact that rampant hypocrisy is a pervasive feature of social relations in most parts of the world and I hope that I am not giving the impression of being some paragon of virtue. Yet, even though I do not seek to wrap myself up in a cloak of ethical rectitude, I do believe that on certain subjects I have to draw a moral line in the sand. In this regard, I absolutely refuse to pretend to believe in what Dawkins correctly refer to as "The God Delusion". Thus I would never write "Christian" as my religion on any form when, in fact, I am a non-theist.

People can decide for themselves what lies they are going to perpetuate in order to make their lives more comfortable and I do not blame them for whatever choice they make. However, they should be fully aware of the potential slippery slope on which they subsequently place themselves.

[johnslat]

Dear casava,
Your moral rectitude is impressive. And so, in my opinion, is your judgmental attitude:

"People can decide for themselves what lies they are going to perpetuate in order to make their lives more comfortable and I do not blame them for whatever choice they make."

I'd say the tone of that statement belies the content.

For a non-theist, you seen paradoxically "holier-than-thou."

Regards,
John the sinner

[Green Acres]

Agnostics and atheists are not the same.

As well, on the form, it does not include all the possible answers, for example, Animism would also be in the category of "other".

If they provide a choice of "other" then it must be acceptable.

Also, suppose someone was not a muslim, but was studying the Koran and could become muslim (if accepted). They would also be "other".

I do appreciate those who seem to fear intolerance, I suppose, it is only natural. I think that people who are making decisions about this issue have got to have some background in this field to understand the significance that "other" beliefs may hold.

Then again, I am an ideological idiot.

[shadowfax]

I see John's point there. A spot of deophobia at work. And I scarce heard anyone so blindly tendentious and dogmatic in this world as Dawkins. I suspect he is highly driven by ego and lucre to pedal his scientific dogma, and in the process has come to believe in it. Though as the saying goes, even the atheist wonders at night if there is a god.

I also see cassava's point in another sense. For example, years ago when I applied for BAe, I noticed the application form asked for your religion, saying "E.g. R/C or C of E (CE for Church of England)". Then there were two little boxes to receive either of these two two-letter responses. If you were a baptist, methodist, or united reformed (as I think I now lean, but with a twist of ecumenicism), who knows what you could put. You're a Roman Catholic or an Anglican, or else shut up or pretend, seemed to be the implication. I have lied about such things in the past, but you don't expect that from a British company. Then again, you could argue that they are only protecting the candidate from putting his own foot in it. Such is the hock we are in for these contracts.

Their e.g. really meant i.e. A dodgy premise to get started on.