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veiledsentiments
Joined: 20 Feb 2003
Posts: 17644
Location: USA
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 Posted: Wed May 13, 2009 2:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Cleopatra wrote: |
| Quote: |
| KAUST won't be hiring ESL teachers, |
Actually, if you use the search function on their site you'll see that they are hiring EFL teachers. No info on salary or conditions though. |
I checked their employment page and tried the search function and couldn't get anything related to TEFL to show up. This seems even stranger now that we know of the management position in the chronicle.
New website glitches I suppose...
VS |
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paradox3696
Joined: 18 Jul 2008
Posts: 44
Location: Normadic
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johnslat
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
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| Posted: Wed May 13, 2009 3:35 pm Post subject: |
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Dear paradox3696,
And yet -
"Monday, April 24, 2006
Harvard, MIT professor pay tops local peers
Boston Business Journal - Boston Business Journal
Harvard University and the Massachusetts Institute of Technology have the highest average salaries for full professors in Greater Boston, and Lasell College and Mount Ida College have the lowest, according to the latest survey by the American Association of University Professors.
The average salary at Harvard is $168,700 and MIT's average is $140,300, according to the association's data. Harvard's average is the second-highest in the nation, with Rockefeller University in New York coming out on top, according to the Chronicle of Higher Education."
http://boston.bizjournals.com/boston/stories/2006/04/24/daily3.html
Can it have declined so much in three years?
Regards,
John |
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paradox3696
Joined: 18 Jul 2008
Posts: 44
Location: Normadic
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| Posted: Wed May 13, 2009 4:10 pm Post subject: |
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Dear Johnslat,
Assume that you figure is more accurate, the offer made to this young Phd and young (assistant???) professor is not too far from the full professor (10 or more years to acheive tenure track???) payscale that you have stated. On top of that, she is a female and her nationality is Pakistani and we all know that gender, nationality and among other things could tell how much you are ALLOWED to make in the kingdom.
In other words, it simply defies the logic of the normal payscale. |
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007
Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 2684
Location: UK/Veteran of the Magic Kingdom
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| Posted: Wed May 13, 2009 4:31 pm Post subject: |
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Well, in this case it is trapezius who has to provide evidence for the claim of his student's mother's salary!
If it is true, then it will be the mother of all salaries, and is exclusively only in the Magiiiiiiiiiiiiic Kiiiiiiiiiigdom!! 
| trapezius wrote: |
| Anyway, my student's mother has been offered SR. 37,500 (USD 10,000) plus all other benefits you can and can't imagine. |
Trapezius, any evidence for the above?
May be the student�s mother was hallucinating! |
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trapezius
Joined: 13 Aug 2006
Posts: 1670
Location: Land of Culture of Death & Destruction
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| Posted: Wed May 13, 2009 11:43 pm Post subject: |
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| There is a fair amount of misinformation in this thread. KAUST won't be hiring ESL teachers |
Not according to their OWN website. I quote:
| Quote: |
Job Location
Saudi Arabia
Job Title
ESL Instructor
Job Type
Non-Academic
Job Summary
The ESL Instructor will provide required English language skills to academically qualified students who requiring support with English in order to meet the language proficiency requirements of KAUST. The Instructor will foster a learner-focused, inquiry-based and field-oriented classroom atmosphere.
Major Responsibilities
� Teaches general English, ESP, and/or EAP classes.
� Participates in material development, including testing.
� Proctors tests and provides other student assessments, as well as maintains records.
� Liaises with other University departments, government agencies, community partners and overseas institutions
� Takes part in on-going materials and test development
� Contributes to English Language assistance offered to university students through the design, supervision and evaluation of curriculum for each program and proposes revisions as needed
� Designs and delivers English for Academic Purposes (Writing, Reading, Grammar, Communication) courses to KAUST�s International students at all levels
� Provides one-on-one assistance to non-native English speaking students working on university level term papers, projects and theses
� Writes and develops new courses to meet university needs
� Designs tests to affirm proficiency of students through the program levels
� Tests new KAUST students in conjunction with Student Recruitment & the Registrar�s Office
� Carries out related administrative duties as assigned by the Manager, ESL Program
� Contributes to community service and outreach activities to reflect KAUST�s mission |
BTW, I don't understand how an 'Instructor' position could be "Non-Academic". Anyway, that's on their site.
Main site -> Employment -> Search for Jobs -> Search Openings -> Search
Then look a few jobs down the list, from May 6. It was the first job in the list when I made the thread. There are 170 job openings, so there might be more ESL related jobs. OK, I searched using 'esl' and got 2 results. The one above, and an "ESL Manager" position from March.
BTW, the purpose of this thread is not to advertise that job, rather, to discuss limits of pay, and KAUST in general.
| Quote: |
| You didn't mention what job it was for. And please don't tell me that it was for a TEFL position. |
She has a Ph.D. in computer science, and it was for an Assistant Professor position.
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| Unless her hiring is being look at with the mind of Einstein, I am doubtful about the 10,000 USD per month figure regardless of what she will be teaching. |
How do you expect people from MIT and Harvard to come to the middle of the desert in a country which is definitely not know for education at any level? Offer them the same pay? Of course not. You have to offer them double to triple of what they are getting, plus all other benefits, and the promise of unlimited research funding. So if people from MIT and Harvard will be getting around $250K or more at least (upto $400K I surmise), it is reasonable that someone from a third tier institution would get half of that. And your numbers seem off. johnslat's numbers seem to be on spot.
| Quote: |
Dear Johnslat,
Assume that you figure is more accurate, the offer made to this young Phd and young (assistant???) professor is not too far from the full professor (10 or more years to acheive tenure track???) payscale that you have stated. On top of that, she is a female and her nationality is Pakistani and we all know that gender, nationality and among other things could tell how much you are ALLOWED to make in the kingdom.
In other words, it simply defies the logic of the normal payscale. |
See my point above about getting people to come to the desert where local students make a ritual of throwing books into the large rubbish tips on streets en masse after final exams each year. The mistake you are making is in assuming that if you are making $150K as a professor at Harvard, you would get the same at KAUST. More like $300K to $450K. Otherwise, why would you leave the world's best institution, even temporarily?
| Quote: |
| Trapezius, any evidence for the above? |
Short of asking her to register on this website and make a post about it, there is no way I can prove it. I will call my student tomorrow and confirm the details. He told me SR. 30,000/month, plus 25% bonus at the end of each year (plus other benefits). I find it hard to believe too... but then again, we are talking about the Magik Kingdom, aren't we?  |
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veiledsentiments
Joined: 20 Feb 2003
Posts: 17644
Location: USA
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| Posted: Thu May 14, 2009 2:10 am Post subject: |
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Non-academic eh? This is just another example of the low status that many universities (most?) assign to ESL/EFL teachers. We are mere drones with mere MAs... as they peer down their noses from their ivory towers.
More seriously, this is why US ESL teachers go abroad, the vast majority will spend years as a part-time adjunct with no job security, no benefits, and no guarantee of hours from semester to semester. If you can tolerate it for enough years, they may deign to give you a contract job at less than what the average entry level BA in business or IT will get. (you, of course, are required to have an MA)
So, this place continues the tradition... I will be very interested to see what their salary offer for EFL is.
VS |
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paradox3696
Joined: 18 Jul 2008
Posts: 44
Location: Normadic
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| Posted: Thu May 14, 2009 5:12 am Post subject: |
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| veiledsentiments wrote: |
So, this place continues the tradition... I will be very interested to see what their salary offer for EFL is.
VS |
Based on Trap reasoning above, if you are from the developed countries (USA, UK, etc), you shall be getting 2 or more times of the salary that you would receive at home country.
Hurry up and apply folks for those who are from these countries and are already in the kindom.
One additional note: For those who are from developed nations, do most of you see your paychecks double or more times for teaching in the kingdom than in your home countries? Puzzling to me!!! |
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Nick Adams
Joined: 26 May 2005
Posts: 7
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| Posted: Thu May 14, 2009 8:09 am Post subject: |
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Cleopatra wrote:
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I question the desirability of these giant 'gated communities' such as KAUST or Dubai's "education city". It's like they are advertising the fact that what they are supposedly trying to achieve is completely at odds with the surrounding society. I suppose you could say you have to start somewhere but I think the danger is that rather than 'trickling down' to the rest of society, the benefits remain with an isolated, elite group - many of whom will likely not even be Saudis.
Wouldn't it be better to gradually reform the education system from the bottom up? But then that wouldn't be as glamorous or prestigous as a gleaming 'research center' untainted by the realities of local society. |
Food for thought there. I have never lived in the Middle East so I don't have the benefit of experience on the ground. Certainly the reality is never as good as the lofty premise. Honestly, the first thing that popped into my head when I had absorbed the sales pitch was that the whole campus could become a point of contention between the conservative and progressive elements of Saudi society. Since then I have learned the Jeddah area is more open/international than other regions in Saudi.
I was too hasty when I wrote that "KAUST will not be hiring ESL teachers." In fact, they probably have already hired a couple of ESL specialists (i.e. teachers with certification from North American or Western European countries and several years of experience, possibly with a second credential in ESL). They will probably need to hire a few teachers with this background each year for the coming several years. But as far as I know they are not hiring English language teachers. |
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Nick Adams
Joined: 26 May 2005
Posts: 7
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| Posted: Thu May 14, 2009 8:21 am Post subject: |
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| Based on Trap reasoning above, if you are from the developed countries (USA, UK, etc), you shall be getting 2 or more times of the salary that you would receive at home country. |
I know for a fact that that is true, with the emphasis placed on "more". I know experienced certified teachers (not college professors, K-12 teachers) who are getting offered over $100,000 USD for their first year. It depends on how you do the math, how many years of teaching experience you have, what your highest degree is, and whether you are considering the high tax rates in the west vs. the tax-free salary. The University startup allowance alone is a 25% bonus to base, although it drops off by 5% per year until it disappears after year 5. This is payment to deal with the extra work and headaches of a new start-up. Also, they want to hire young couples or people with families who will adapt and stay a long time.
From the KAUST website at http://www.kaust.edu.sa/employment/compensation.aspx
Overseas and Competitive Allowances
Overseas Incentive Allowance
Faculty and administrative staff will embark on an exciting overseas work experience; this allowance is designed to help make their assignment financially rewarding.
Local Competitive Allowance
KAUST staff will receive an allowance that places them competitively both locally and in the global market for their professional field.
University Start-Up Allowance
This special allowance is extended in recognition of the efforts and commitment that are required from the founding faculty and staff during the launch of KAUST as a world-class research university. |
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freesoul
Joined: 09 Mar 2009
Posts: 240
Location: Waiting for my next destination
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| Posted: Thu May 14, 2009 8:55 am Post subject: |
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Dear Nick,
After reading you last post on this thread, I started right away browsing KAUST website hoping to find "an equal opportunity disclaimer", I was appalled to find there is no such a thing. A university of such alleged magnitude should have followed the modern recruitment trends in offering equal opportunities regardless of anything else. But it seems KAUST will have some "magical" touches.
But again, appointing a president from Asian background, with half of the board of trustees from mixed backgrounds contradicts your comments, Nick.
Or is it just the world of ESL/EFL that is chronically infected with incurable discrimination dichotomy of the so called " developed and developing countries" ??
Hope KAUST will live to its promise and make a change, but if your comments are correct, well well��.. |
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Gulezar
Joined: 19 Jun 2007
Posts: 483
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veiledsentiments
Joined: 20 Feb 2003
Posts: 17644
Location: USA
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| Posted: Thu May 14, 2009 2:03 pm Post subject: |
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| paradox3696 wrote: |
| One additional note: For those who are from developed nations, do most of you see your paychecks double or more times for teaching in the kingdom than in your home countries? Puzzling to me!!! |
In EFL... or K-12 teaching, I'd say absolutely not. (nor have any of the American professors who I have talked to with job offers in Kuwait, the UAE, or Oman) I don't know anyone teaching in the Middle East in International schools with good credentials that gets anywhere near $100,000. With the exception of the Aramco school, the pay scale is similar, if not the same as, in TEFL for MA holders in the Gulf.
The difference for TEFL teachers is that you can actually GET a contract job. The salaries will sound very close, but of course, once you factor in the effect of no taxes, free housing, flight tickets each year for that two month vacation, free health care... we are WAY ahead of our equivalent teachers back home in the key factor of "take-home pay."
VS |
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eclectic
Joined: 09 Nov 2006
Posts: 1122
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| Posted: Thu May 14, 2009 3:19 pm Post subject: |
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| VS is right, not to mention if you teach in Newark, New Jersey youre likely to get stabbed or shot by a 50-cent wannabe 16 year old delinquent, all for a whopping $40,000 per year, no housing allowance, no airfares, no nothing. |
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Nick Adams
Joined: 26 May 2005
Posts: 7
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| Posted: Thu May 14, 2009 11:21 pm Post subject: |
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Dear Nick,
After reading you last post on this thread, I started right away browsing KAUST website hoping to find "an equal opportunity disclaimer", I was appalled to find there is no such a thing. A university of such alleged magnitude should have followed the modern recruitment trends in offering equal opportunities regardless of anything else. But it seems KAUST will have some "magical" touches.
But again, appointing a president from Asian background, with half of the board of trustees from mixed backgrounds contradicts your comments, Nick. |
Look, I'm just a teacher. Trying to share some information. I don't have an agenda to promote the school or defend it in any way.
No, they are not an equal opportunity employer. I would guess it would be unwise to be a militant atheist or advertise oneself as a practitioner of an alternative lifestyle. Is it "modern"? Um, kinda-ish trying to be but who knows. I said they hired women and would pay them the same as men. I know that is true from personal experience. The restrictions that apply to people from a Jewish background or travelers who have passport stamps from Israel will be in full effect. When I interviewed with them it sounded like they were trying to hire as many people from North America and Western Europe as possible. Clearly, there is a bias and a preference for hiring people with a certain "background". Will they be successful? I have no way of knowing.
Will the "international school" there be truly "international"? No way, at least not for several years. It will mostly be Arabian and Filipino kids next year. Is this because the school is lying and misrepresenting its mission statement? No, it's the reality of being a new school going through growing pains. |
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