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Chris21
Joined: 30 Apr 2006
Posts: 366
Location: Japan
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 Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 2:41 am Post subject: |
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| Explain what you think the hassle is? An employer forks over the contract, his tax records, and little else. No real hassle there. |
MOD EDIT
So a company can do the paperwork, expose themselves to scrutiny by sponsoring someone that could turn out to be a nutter, and wait two months for the process to finish before the applicant can start working for them... or they can hire someone that requires none of that. Don't you think any company interested in efficiency would choose the latter course? |
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cvmurrieta
Joined: 10 Jul 2008
Posts: 209
Location: Sendai, Japan
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| Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 3:25 am Post subject: |
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| Chris21 wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Explain what you think the hassle is? An employer forks over the contract, his tax records, and little else. No real hassle there. |
So a company can do the paperwork, expose themselves to scrutiny by sponsoring someone that could turn out to be a nutter, and wait two months for the process to finish before the applicant can start working for them... or they can hire someone that requires none of that. Don't you think any company interested in efficiency would choose the latter course? |
I fully agree with your line of reasoning; but unfortunately it seems many places don't adhere to logic. Yes, efficient companies would choose the latter course. One must first wade through the inefficient ones to get to the good ones unless one is lucky enough on the first attempt to get a good place. As we all know, it is easier to take advantage of the noob who is "desperate" to get to Japan and who may be solely dependent on the school than it is the EFL teacher who has been here for a while and has somewhat of a support system to rely on.
As Glenski has said, the market is flooded. This means all places are going to have their pick of teachers (I know...I am not reiterating rocket science) |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 6:51 am Post subject: |
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| Chris21 wrote: |
| So a company can do the paperwork, expose themselves to scrutiny by sponsoring someone that could turn out to be a nutter, and wait two months for the process to finish before the applicant can start working for them... or they can hire someone that requires none of that. Don't you think any company interested in efficiency would choose the latter course? |
"Scrutiny"? What for? If an employer is honest, he has nothing to hide, and the only "scrutiny" is showing that he is a valid employer with a valid contract to hire a valid employee.
Whether that person is a nutter, you don't have to sponsor anyone to get that!
Waiting 2 months is nothing. Employers all over the world, and not even in EFL, wait that long unless they have an emergency fall upon them.
Efficiency is relative, Chris. Besides, many employers don't even want people within Japan because those teachers may know the score about them (a negative score, that is). Or they just want fresh faces that don't have that "lived in" appearance to students. The fresher the better. Remember the Gwen Gallagher university case? |
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Chris21
Joined: 30 Apr 2006
Posts: 366
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 9:03 am Post subject: |
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| it is easier to take advantage of the noob |
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| don't even want people within Japan because those teachers may know the score about them (a negative score, that is) |
Maybe the company doesn't want to take advantage of anyone or doesn't feel like there is something negative to hide about their school. Maybe they feel their work environment is fine, and they just want less paperwork on their end.
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| Whether that person is a nutter, you don't have to sponsor anyone to get that! |
Schools would be inviting scrutiny from the labor/immigration board for bringing over the next lunatic gaijin who quits after a few months, sleeps with students, is a lazy teacher, smokes marijuana on their balcony, etc, etc, etc. Serving as someone's sponsor, especially someone that you have only met once in an interview, is strangely not appealing to many people. If it were me, I would only serve as a sponsor for my closest friends, and certainly not a rookie English teacher. Since they have the choice, why not go the safe route and hire someone that doesn't require sponsorship? It's not like there is a shortage of applicants from them to choose from.
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| Waiting 2 months is nothing. Employers all over the world, and not even in EFL, wait that long unless they have an emergency fall upon them. |
Waiting two months is a long time if your teachers only give one month (or less) when they quit. |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 12:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Chris21 wrote: |
| Maybe the company doesn't want to take advantage of anyone or doesn't feel like there is something negative to hide about their school. Maybe they feel their work environment is fine, and they just want less paperwork on their end. |
People who think like that not only limit themselves, but their thinking is also limited, simply because the amount of paperwork is extremely minimal.
| Quote: |
Me: Whether that person is a nutter, you don't have to sponsor anyone to get that!
Chris: Schools would be inviting scrutiny from the labor/immigration board for bringing over the next lunatic gaijin who quits after a few months, sleeps with students, is a lazy teacher, smokes marijuana on their balcony, etc, etc, etc. |
Oh, puh-lease! How unrealistic MOD EDIT
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| Since they have the choice, why not go the safe route and hire someone that doesn't require sponsorship? It's not like there is a shortage of applicants from them to choose from. |
I already answered that. Didn't you read?
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| Waiting 2 months is nothing. Employers all over the world, and not even in EFL, wait that long unless they have an emergency fall upon them. |
Waiting two months is a long time if your teachers only give one month (or less) when they quit.[/quote]Hence the use of the word "emergency" in my post. MOD EDIT |
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RollingStone
Joined: 19 Jan 2009
Posts: 138
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| Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 4:15 pm Post subject: |
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Glenski,
I mentioned the pressure for nationalists to conform because it underscores the strength (though some may state it is the weakness) of the culture. I would say this `strength` makes it vulnerable, and considers change threatening. It is generally a very conservative culture. Historically, its attitude toward outside influences is remarkable, with various examples available. But the dominant theme throughout all those examples is taking the outside influence and transforming it enough to make it Japanese.
With people, this is not so easy. So, generally, there is tolerance to this intrusion of foreign influence. But inviting foreigners to Japan is the last resort. YMMV means that anecdotal evidence is limited. Yes, your particular experience may not reflect what I am suggesting. Anecdotal evidence is not an argument.
More non-anecdotal evidence from me would include:
- the virtual impossibility for non-nationals to gain citizenship. You either marry into it or you are a major celebrity whom is granted the honour. All you folks would not even be working in Japan if you werent born in an English-speaking country. Even if you did somehow manage employment the concept of citizenship would be apparently unthinkable.
- the general attitude towards people of Korean descent actually born in Japan but still considered foreigners, treated as 3rd class citizens.
- social policy response to the long-known issue of declining population via declining birth rates. Though this is perceived to significantly injure Japanese wealth and standard of living the response to welcome foreign nationalists is hardly significant.
My impressions are gathered from gaijin with 15 years total experience working and living in Japan, their Japanese spouses who they met in Japan, my other personal Japanese relations who`s total years of experience of Japanese culture are over 100.
And I bring up the exemption foreigners face from pressures to conform to underscore the fact that even in the best case scenario you are not considered other than foreigner. No matter how much of the language you learn, how much of the culture you absorb, how much of the custom you adhere to - you will always be gaijin.
Finally, if you are suggesting that small town Japan is quite tolerant to outsiders then you are frankly blowing smoke. Small Town Anywhere In the World is likely less enthusiastic about foreign influences, as these areas are by far the most conservative. A conservative country and monolithic culture and identity such as Japan can only be more so. Will this be expressed via hostility? Not likely. Doesnt mean it isnt there. |
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Revenant
Mod Team
Joined: 28 Jul 2005
Posts: 1109
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| Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 4:25 pm Post subject: |
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Keep this discussion on track and civil. Posts have been either edited or removed otherwise.
Debate is fine, baiting with and/or biting into antagonistic quips are not. |
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BobbyBan
Joined: 05 Feb 2008
Posts: 201
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| Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 9:25 pm Post subject: |
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| RollingStone wrote: |
| I mentioned the pressure for nationalists to conform because it underscores the strength (though some may state it is the weakness) of the culture. I would say this `strength` makes it vulnerable, and considers change threatening. It is generally a very conservative culture. Historically, its attitude toward outside influences is remarkable, with various examples available. But the dominant theme throughout all those examples is taking the outside influence and transforming it enough to make it Japanese. |
I think that you are assuming "conservatism" in a culture to be bad. This is not necessarily so. In what ways has conservatism damaged Japan? Hasn't a certain amount of conservatism also benefitted Japan?
You say that there are various examples available of Japan's attitude to outside influences, would you care to spell these out?
I don't understand what the problem is with transforming an outside influence to make it more assimilable to Japanese culture. You'll probably find that for all the wafu curry and spaghetti that there is in Japan there is plenty of California roll in the States and Balti curry in Britain. If you're talking about wider cultural things then you can look at how Japan has adopted and adapted Chinese script so that it uses both the pictoral characters and its own invented syllabaries. But this is a bit of a digression.
| Quote: |
- the virtual impossibility for non-nationals to gain citizenship. You either marry into it or you are a major celebrity whom is granted the honour. All you folks would not even be working in Japan if you werent born in an English-speaking country. Even if you did somehow manage employment the concept of citizenship would be apparently unthinkable.
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It may be "non-anecdotal" but it is speculative. There are plenty of people working in Japan who are not from English-speaking countries - the odds are only higher in your favour here because this is being discussed on "Dave's ESL Cafe" and so are far less likely to have Korean, Chinese, Thai, Iranian readers here - and how do you know that the concept of citizenship is unthinkable for non-Japanese. Most of those from places such as the US, UK, Canada and Australia etc... would find Japanese citizenship unpalatable because they would have to give up their previous nationality and the rights and priveleges which go with that. People from certain other countries may not feel the same way.
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| - the general attitude towards people of Korean descent actually born in Japan but still considered foreigners, treated as 3rd class citizens. |
Yes, in general this is not good. But those who want to become Japanese can do so fairly easily, it means having to relinquish their previous nationality though.
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- social policy response to the long-known issue of declining population via declining birth rates. Though this is perceived to significantly injure Japanese wealth and standard of living the response to welcome foreign nationalists is hardly significant.
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Yes, they have a problem here also but is it unreasonable of the Japanese to try out other alternatives before adopting mass immigration?
By the way, I was a little confused by your use of the term "nationalists" earlier and I think it is because you have used it in place of "nationals". There is a very important distinction.
When I think of "nationalists" in Japan, this is the image that is conjured up:
[img]http://images.absoluteastronomy.com/images/encyclopediaimages/j/ja/japanese_nationalism.jpg[/img]
Why would Japan want to import "foreign nationalists"?
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| Finally, if you are suggesting that small town Japan is quite tolerant to outsiders then you are frankly blowing smoke. Small Town Anywhere In the World is likely less enthusiastic about foreign influences, as these areas are by far the most conservative. A conservative country and monolithic culture and identity such as Japan can only be more so. Will this be expressed via hostility? Not likely. Doesnt mean it isnt there. |
I've lived in small-town Japan and found the people there to be very tolerant. Could you explain how you know that tolerance is non-existent in small towns in Japan? Don't confuse enthusiasm about foreign influences for tolerance. Isn't it intolerant to expect "conservative" small towns to conform to the newcomer who would rather see their new home adapt to them rather than they adapt to their new home? |
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Chris21
Joined: 30 Apr 2006
Posts: 366
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 10:04 pm Post subject: |
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While you raise a number of well-thought out points, Glenski, I disagree on a few issues...
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| People who think like that not only limit themselves, but their thinking is also limited, simply because the amount of paperwork is extremely minimal. |
Whether it is "minimal" is up for debate. What is certain is that a person already with a visa requires NO paperwork, which would certainly seem more appealing to me as an employer.
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| Oh, puh-lease! How unrealistic |
It's not unrealistic to think that a school would not want to legally tie themselves to a potential idiot.
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| Hence the use of the word "emergency" in my post. |
One month is not an "emergency". It is the standard period of notice when quitting from an eikaiwa in Japan. |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 10:31 pm Post subject: |
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| RollingStone wrote: |
But the dominant theme throughout all those examples is taking the outside influence and transforming it enough to make it Japanese.
With people, this is not so easy. So, generally, there is tolerance to this intrusion of foreign influence. But inviting foreigners to Japan is the last resort. |
I agree. Japan's immigration policy (non-existent, actually) supports your statements.
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| - the virtual impossibility for non-nationals to gain citizenship. You either marry into it or you are a major celebrity whom is granted the honour. All you folks would not even be working in Japan if you werent born in an English-speaking country. Even if you did somehow manage employment the concept of citizenship would be apparently unthinkable. |
I don't agree with most of this paragraph.
You don't marry to get citizenship here. You only get a spouse visa that way.
What is so "virtually impossible" about changing one's nationality in Japan? Do you have any stats to show failure rate of people applying to change their nationalities?
And all of us teachers are not from English-speaking countries.
As for citizenship being unthinkable, how about the Finn who is in the government, or good ole Bobby Olegun (who got citizenship here despite a semi-violent crime)?
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- the general attitude towards people of Korean descent actually born in Japan but still considered foreigners, treated as 3rd class citizens.
- social policy response to the long-known issue of declining population via declining birth rates. |
Now, these I DO agree with you!
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| And I bring up the exemption foreigners face from pressures to conform to underscore the fact that even in the best case scenario you are not considered other than foreigner. No matter how much of the language you learn, how much of the culture you absorb, how much of the custom you adhere to - you will always be gaijin. |
I have not said otherwise.
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| Finally, if you are suggesting that small town Japan is quite tolerant to outsiders then you are frankly blowing smoke. |
No smoke here. Never said anything like that. |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 10:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Chris21 wrote: |
Me:People who think like that not only limit themselves, but their thinking is also limited, simply because the amount of paperwork is extremely minimal.
Chris: Whether it is "minimal" is up for debate. |
I'm sorry, but that is untrue. It is minimal. Don't just say the opposite to argue a point. Employers have to show very little work, as the MOFA site proves.
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| What is certain is that a person already with a visa requires NO paperwork, which would certainly seem more appealing to me as an employer. |
The difference is almost insubstantial, but I see your point and agree that some employers may feel like you. That's not to say it's a valid way to consider the hiring situation, though.
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| One month is not an "emergency". It is the standard period of notice when quitting from an eikaiwa in Japan. |
Not necessarily. One can quit with 2 weeks notice if one has been there a year or more. The month is what an employer is obligated to give as a minimum when they fire someone. We both know that plenty of foreigners leave with less notice than 30 days, too. In either case, with the flooded market now, a month is more than enough time to get a replacement!
Last edited by Glenski on Sat Jun 13, 2009 7:11 am; edited 1 time in total |
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RollingStone
Joined: 19 Jan 2009
Posts: 138
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| Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 10:43 pm Post subject: |
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| BobbyBan wrote: |
I think that you are assuming "conservatism" in a culture to be bad. This is not necessarily so. In what ways has conservatism damaged Japan? Hasn't a certain amount of conservatism also benefitted Japan?
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I am not aware of suggesting the conservative culture has hurt Japan (though books have been written to the contrary, books I dont agree with). I stated it made it vulnerable. Rigid societies can create enormous pressures for themselves.
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I don't understand what the problem is with transforming an outside influence to make it more assimilable to Japanese culture. |
Neither do I. This actually was my point that Japan has historically incorporated foreign influence and made it Japanese - your mention of Chinese script is one, Buddhism another, industrialization a third.... I see these as remarkable examples of facing a potentially dominant power and adopting change to create strength and progression and a distinct society. I meant this as a good thing.
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...how do you know that the concept of citizenship is unthinkable for non-Japanese.
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Again, you misunderstand my point. I meant that it would be inconceivalbe for foreigners to obtain citizenship not because they wouldnt want to but because of the difficulty. A friend recently recounted the difficulty he went through trying to obtain permanent resident status for his foreign wife. Apparently it took him years just to get that, a process that is virtually automatic in my country. This is perhaps anecdotal. But I have never heard from Japanese friends that obtaining citizenship is `quite easy`. But they could be wrong.
Japan is not alone in this. Germany is very similar.
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Yes, they have a problem here also but is it unreasonable of the Japanese to try out other alternatives before adopting mass immigration?
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This suggestion is just disingenuous. What alternatives (that are so obvious that they are to be tried first) might there be for dwindling birth rates? And what is "mass immigration"? You mean simply opening the borders and hanging on to one's hat?
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By the way, I was a little confused by your use of the term "nationalists" earlier and I think it is because you have used it in place of "nationals".
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(you know when i was typing nationalists something wasnt sounding right)
Re enthusiasm in small towns my point is quite clear. You apparently actually agree with it, though am not sure you realize this. It appears I also quite clearly used the word enthusiasm. And your scenario of blending in etc I clearly disagree with. No matter how well you seek to assimilate it will never be enough. You may have friends, even family. But you will always be gaijin, to the general population
EDIT No I have never llived in small town Japan. My girlfriend was born and raised there though. To not be aware of the very traditional Japanese mindset in rural Japan is to be not aware of the very dominant mindset. At least where Japanese are concerned. So, if one is not experiencing that mindset directly, it can only mean it is because one is not considered as Japanese, as 'one of us'. BUt again, she, and her direct experiences, and those of her friends and family, could all be very wrong. I concede that. |
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Apsara
Joined: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 2142
Location: Tokyo, Japan
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| Posted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 12:12 am Post subject: |
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| RollingStone wrote: |
But I have never heard from Japanese friends that obtaining citizenship is `quite easy`. But they could be wrong.
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I'll just address this point:
I wouldn't expect your Japanese friends (unless they are immigration lawyers) to have any idea of the process of or difficulty/easiness of gaining Japanese citizenship or PR, because it is not something that they, or most of the people around them, will ever have to do. I don't ask my Japanese husband if I want to know anything about the workings of Japan Immigration- all he knows is what he's heard from me or our non-Japanese friends.
In the same way, I know nothing about the citizenship or PR process in NZ, because I was born a NZ citizen.
Usually people who have immigrated to a particular country will know far more about the residency or naturalisation processes than the people who were born there. |
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RollingStone
Joined: 19 Jan 2009
Posts: 138
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| Posted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 3:28 am Post subject: |
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| Apsara wrote: |
| RollingStone wrote: |
But I have never heard from Japanese friends that obtaining citizenship is `quite easy`. But they could be wrong.
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I'll just address this point:
I wouldn't expect your Japanese friends (unless they are immigration lawyers) to have any idea of the process of or difficulty/easiness of gaining Japanese citizenship or PR, because it is not something that they, or most of the people around them, will ever have to do. I don't ask my Japanese husband if I want to know anything about the workings of Japan Immigration- all he knows is what he's heard from me or our non-Japanese friends.
In the same way, I know nothing about the citizenship or PR process in NZ, because I was born a NZ citizen.
Usually people who have immigrated to a particular country will know far more about the residency or naturalisation processes than the people who were born there. |
Your point makes perfect sense and seems quite sound. And you are right, I do not know the processes and issues involved with gaining citizenship to my country. But I know what my girlfriend went through; what several of her friends have experienced. And thus now I am much more aware than the average citizen about what it takes and what to expect. Thus I was able to compare and contrast the Japanese process to my country's. Likewise, I would not claim to know what specifically is involved with gaining Japanese citizenship. However, I have provided at least one example of what it took merely to get a spousal visa, which so far is more than what you or anyone else have provided in response. |
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Apsara
Joined: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 2142
Location: Tokyo, Japan
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| Posted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 5:19 am Post subject: |
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I found getting a spouse visa quite painless myself, and none of the people I know who are married to Japanese have reported any problems with getting their visas= I received mine within a few weeks of applying.
I couldn't actually find where you talked about the spouse visa in your posts, I may have missed it, but I did see where you mentioned that it took some time for the wife of a Japanese friend to get PR (a completely different status to a spouse visa). I can tell you that it does not usually take years. Friends of mine who have PR said the process took about 6 months- and none of them are married to Japanese people. |
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