Job Discussion Forums

donfan · Joined: 31 Aug 2003 Posts: 217

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Dr.J · Joined: 09 May 2003 Posts: 304 Location: usually Japan

I've come across the 'red sun' thing too, when I saw some kids drawing pictures. "Whoa! what's that a supernova!" I said. "No that's the sun, baka." was the reply.

Anyway, numbers are also a common one, e.g. 4 is death VS western 13 or 666. I think this kind of thing is important, but hard to take on systematically. Isn't there any 'culture textbook' out there, which outlines the main effects that English culture has on its language? Anyone feel like writing one? I'd buy one. For now I just point things out as they turn up...

steampig · Joined: 27 Oct 2003 Posts: 28

Shouldn't it be 'fewest' number of stars?

naturegirl321 · Joined: 04 May 2003 Posts: 9041 Location: home sweet home

I don't think that japan has a star. It has a circle shape that represents the sun which is a star. the chinese flag has five stars, but the represent the Party, and the four differnet types of people.
So I think that Japan has a circle and not a star!

shmooj · Joined: 11 Sep 2003 Posts: 1758 Location: Seoul, ROK

another thing he mentioned was this:

over the last 30 years, in various classrooms around the world, he has put up an overhead with four flags - China, NZ, Somalia, Japan.

He then asks high school students to point out the Somali flag. He said that alsmost every Japanese student he asks says "I don't know." He then runs through the flags one by one and they identify them all leaving on the Somali flag left. He then asks them what it is and they say "Somalia". He says that when he does this exercise in China, he never has a student remark "I don't know."

THe issue is why the Japanese students say "I don't know" instead of going through the mental process to eliminate alternatives and choose the only remaining plausible alternative.

It goes to show that even when a fairly simple process of elimination will provide the Japanese student with the right answer, they will still say "I don't know". There are pitfalls here for any shortsighted teacher who takes this answer at face value.

I have certainly experienced this in my classes. Have any of you? What about other nationalities?

dmb · Joined: 12 Feb 2003 Posts: 8397

It's the same with Arabs. I have a relatively bright bunch. Yesterday they were doing a crossword and they just couldn't get the idea if they completed a different clue it would aid them in the clue they were having problems with.
"Teacher teacher what's the first letter"
"Do 12 down it will give you the first letter"
"Why teacher teacher? First letter.Please. Quick"
"aaargh. Break."

Mike_2003 · Joined: 27 Mar 2003 Posts: 344 Location: Bucharest, Romania

I had a similar situation with a group of Turkish students some years ago. The text included something along the lines of: "Peter is fifteen years old. His brother, John, is four years younger." I asked the students to tell me how old John was. They stared at the text but couldn't come up with the answer. They were all looking for a sentence which ran "John is X years old." After a few minutes of huddling they proclaimed that the text didn't give that information so they couldn't answer.

Dr.J · Joined: 09 May 2003 Posts: 304 Location: usually Japan

Yep I'm so with you on this one. When the teacher student relationship starts up, it's seen as a one-way information transfer process from teacher to student. Never mind the fact that learning is best done by discovery (ala Gibran)...

Although, in Japan 'I don't know' sometimes just means 'I don't want to answer'. Many western people make the mistake of taking the words at their face value. I bet you some of the students knew the answer. Still, I guess his main point still holds. More lateral thinking needed.

naturegirl321 · Joined: 04 May 2003 Posts: 9041 Location: home sweet home

shmooj · Joined: 11 Sep 2003 Posts: 1758 Location: Seoul, ROK

nice idea naturegirl but if that were true no Japanese student would say it either. Though face is an issue, I'm inclined to think it isn't the main issue here but more along the lines of the posters above - lack of ability to think laterally and problem solve.

naturegirl321 · Joined: 04 May 2003 Posts: 9041 Location: home sweet home

I don't know. Face is BIG here. And if they don't say it in English, they say it in Chinese.

guest of Japan · Joined: 28 Feb 2003 Posts: 1601 Location: Japan

Certainly you will find a lot of people in Japan who are not adept at lateral thinking, but I met a whole lot of them in the US too. I'm quite sure they exist in other countries as well. However, I have to come to the defense of the Japanese people on this one. I have met hordes of intelligent critical thinkers in this country. The doctor presented the idea to a lecture group. Most certainly the students figured out that the question was designed so that they would give a wrong answer, so they chose to not embarass themselves by saying "I don't know." Add this to the idea that when people go to a lecture or class in this country they go with the cultural expectation to listen to the speaker and take notes. As teachers we have to wean them of this method not because they are intellectually inferior to us but because it is an ingrained technique that is unsuitable for our classes.

shmooj · Joined: 11 Sep 2003 Posts: 1758 Location: Seoul, ROK

Sorry no, he was a teacher in high schools in Japan and that's when he did the test. The thing is, for anyone who has worked in Japan, you can just see it happening. "I don't know." is the standard reply (if you get one at all).

This happens time and again with listening exercises in textbooks. Students could figure out the answers simply, but rely solely on hearing every word on the tape. The result? "I don't know" when asked what the answer is.

daveryan · Joined: 20 Aug 2003 Posts: 40

Although based on my limited experience of teaching both Japanese and Chinese students. (aprox two weeks) I have found that students of both nationalities are less invlined to take a guess in class than say the East European students in the group. I have also observed that their recollections of what I have told them myself are fairly exact. I could guess that this relates to an educational culture that recognises fact only when confirmed by a higher authority, and therefore their reluctance to act (guess at answer) based solely on their own reasoning. However, I hasten to point out that this is only a wild guess based on limited experience and no first-hand knowledge of either country.

Nonetheless a good exercise for the brain.

Cheers
Dave

Wolf · Joined: 10 May 2003 Posts: 1245 Location: Middle Earth

Well, I've had 20something Japanese stuents tell me that they know nothing of the 1980s. I don't believe them.

The image/idea I had of my job description didn't include teaching students to make such logical connections.

As a teacher, I am expected to teach negotiational stragegies to help students fill in whatever gaps they might have in their ability to communicate.

BUT

My job isn't to teach them their first langauge.

Such reading skills (math skills?) as finding the answer to: "I have 20 eggs. Jim has 4 eggs more than me. How many eggs does Jim have?" SHOULD NOT need to be part of what I teach. It sometimes is, though. But when that happens, I end up wasting valuable class time on teaching skills that they should already have before they come to me. (In university/adult education anyway, which is what I do.)

To my students who claim not to know the 1980 in spite of living through them, I try to explain that saying "I don't know" when you actually do know is a rude thing to do in many English speaking cultures, etc. I tried to prompt with suggesting categories (what music was popular? what was the economy like? What TV shows were popular? etc.)

I had limited sucess in my efforts.

By the way, my Chinese and Korean fellow students in Japanese class (as well as myself) were able to figure out answers to such questions in a second language. For what it's worth.