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leeroy
Joined: 30 Jan 2003
Posts: 777
Location: London UK
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 Posted: Sat Jan 17, 2004 10:50 am Post subject: |
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| inthe first year of infancy, the mom is needed in essential ways the father is not. |
I agree.
I'm sure we also all agree that men and women are different. So too are mothers and fathers - and their corresponding roles.
In another thread it was agreed that the styles of communication that men and women prefer differ. While women can be quite open and direct when dealing with emotional issues, men tend to be a little more complicated.
Going back to the example given in another thread about discussing a car crash,
A group of girls would console the girl-whose car-had-crashed quite directly, "Oh, you poor thing!", etc.. For guys (well, straight guys at least), this is a definite no-no. Men have to say and ask practical and objective things like "What's the damage to the car?".
This might seem like women are emotionally connected and men are distant from each other - but wait a second! By asking questions about the accident and making statements about it, guys are indirectly saying "I care". Functionally, they are doing the same thing - communicating sympathy and/or empathy.
On two occasions I have worked with guys called "Fatty". All the guys in the staff room called them fatty, only girls and "outsiders" referred to them by their real names. On the surface this might seem crude and derisive - but if you look at it on a deeper level it is saying "I am comfortable enough with you to refer to you by an insulting name and still remain friends". For guys, calling someone overweight "fatty" is affectionate. A similar friendship strategy for an overweight girl would be A Very Bad Idea Indeed...
So men are affectionate - but display it less obviously than women. Pretty much every woman and man in the world, in the entirety of its history, has fitted this stereotype to one degree or another. (Exceptions not withstanding of course, and gay men are another matter...). Women seem inherently more suited to being "carers", "nurturers", or whatever - which I attribute to their more open and visible style of communicating empathy. I would go so far as to say that this isn't due to culture or society (though both play a part!), it's genetic. In fact, we see it in the animal kingdom too.
| khmerit wrote: |
| the mother has something to give that the father can't |
Exactly.
In the early years are mothers "more important" than fathers? Crudely, in my opinion, yes.
This isn't to say that fathers don't have a place in parenthood! But I see their role as less emotionally supportive. Mine certainly dealt with the more practical side of things; table manners, how to play chess, shaving, etc... That stuff's not so important when you're 2 years old, but cuddles are.
(But, I'm not a parent, what the hell do I know?  ) |
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Gordon
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 5309
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Sat Jan 17, 2004 11:44 am Post subject: |
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| leeroy wrote: |
This isn't to say that fathers don't have a place in parenthood! But I see their role as less emotionally supportive. Mine certainly dealt with the more practical side of things; table manners, how to play chess, shaving, etc... That stuff's not so important when you're 2 years old, but cuddles are.
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Hey let's not forget a few other important things that Dad's do. There are airplane rides, piggybacks, being a human trampoline, reading the same book over and over again (can't tell you how many times I've read Green eggs and ham) and playing sports. Ideally, kids should have a mom and dad. Unfortunately we don't live in an ideal world. |
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Egas
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| Posted: Sat Jan 17, 2004 5:32 pm Post subject: |
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I used to fantasise about a world run by women. After all, men had f'cked up the world about as bad as one could imagine. Then I worked in two schools in Taiwan that where women held all the power. Both schools degenerated into huge cat fights. The first one basically collapsed amidst the the women's snarls and jealous rages for attention and power. The second, run by three sisters, eventuated in screaming mataches that raged for hours. It was truly frightening. Eventually two of the sisters ganged up on the other, and destroyed her.
I eventually came to the conclusion that women were no better at handling power than men. In fact, their uncontrolable emotionality, lust for attention, pettiness and jealous rages made them much worse than men.
I know this is totally politically incorrect, and the women will snarl at me for having the balls  to say it. But I don't think a world run by women would work. What I'd like to see is a balance of men and women in power. That way we don't have situations degenerating into testosterone induced brawls, or estrogen induced cat fights. (but that may be just a little reductionist in its causality!) |
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leeroy
Joined: 30 Jan 2003
Posts: 777
Location: London UK
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| Posted: Sat Jan 17, 2004 5:42 pm Post subject: |
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Careful girls! No arguments remember?
I had a conversation with a (female) teacher a little while ago where she conceded something similar. But I'm not sure it's a simple case of men or women being "better" - perhaps more one of "bad male bosses" having different negative traits to "bad female bosses".
In terms of b.itchiness then yes, girls win hands down. But men rule when it comes to being aggressive.
Could it be that male employees respond better to female bosses and vice-versa? |
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Laura C
Joined: 14 Oct 2003
Posts: 211
Location: Saitama
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| Posted: Sat Jan 17, 2004 7:18 pm Post subject: |
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Predictable comment, Egas.  Women do not/should not have power or even equality, as they will just abuse it by being catty, b*tchy etc. Perhaps we should then generalise that men should not have power as they abuse it by being 'aggressive' -- after all, none of the conflicts/wars etc in the world at present were started by us jealous catty women.
It does not take 'balls' to make a comment like yours, just ignorance. And to say that women will 'snarl' at you for saying it is an unfair argument, as it tries to automatically lessen the credibility of someone who dares to disagree with you.
L |
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Capergirl
Joined: 02 Feb 2003
Posts: 1232
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada
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| Posted: Sat Jan 17, 2004 7:44 pm Post subject: |
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| leeroy wrote: |
In terms of b.itchiness then yes, girls win hands down. But men rule when it comes to being aggressive. |
Why is a woman's aggressiveness always referred to as "b.itchiness"? I know I won't get a satisfactory answer for this, but I had to pose the question.
@khmerhit...That study you copied and pasted does nothing to back your argument and I will tell you why. For years (and years and years), women have been the primary caregivers of their children. Therefore, most studies are based on this traditional dynamic and do not include results based on stay-at-home fathers and their offspring. How do you know that men can't fill that role equally well during that first year? Breastfeeding aside - we all know men's b.reasts don't produce milk so there is no need to be patronizing about this - I think men and women can care for their infants equally. Women may be "nurturers" but that doesn't mean they (we) automatically know everything about childcare. We all have to learn it from scratch, let's face it. Men can be just as cuddly as women are with their kids, they have just been socialized away from such behaviours. It's too bad because the few single dads I know are wonderful parents and very loving/nurturing. It is possible.
Let me tell you why I believe the 'babies need their moms' argument persists. Men are not stupid (well, okay, some are...lol  ). They know that looking after babies is hard work. Why would they want to give up the freedom of being the non-nurturing provider rather than the primary caregiver? That would mean more work and a much, much bigger commitment on their part. It would also require selflessness. No offense guys, but men are not known for their selflessness (although I will concede that they are improving in this area in recent years). Any woman who has had a child can tell you that a hot shower is a luxury when you are a new mom...and a rarity. A man, on the other hand, couldn't conceive of giving up his Saturday golf game, let alone regular, uninterrupted showers. Children don't just need their moms, they need someone to give them full-time care in a safe, nurturing environment. Either parent (or grandparent, aunt, uncle, nanny...) can provide that.
I'll reiterate what I said before. Divide the parental leave between parents (excepting single parents, of course). That is the only way things are really going to change for women in the workforce. It will also do wonders for family life.
Footnote: Apparently b.reast is a dirty word. |
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khmerhit
Joined: 31 May 2003
Posts: 1874
Location: Reverse Culture Shock Unit
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| Posted: Sat Jan 17, 2004 9:31 pm Post subject: |
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........GONE GOLFING.. BACK AFTER LUNCH
Last edited by khmerhit on Sun Jan 18, 2004 3:27 am; edited 5 times in total |
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johnslat
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
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| Posted: Sat Jan 17, 2004 9:41 pm Post subject: Walk like a man |
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Dear Capergirl,
"Why is a woman's aggressiveness always referred to as "b.itchiness"? "
Well, could be "gender-related". Aggressive men are sometimes referred to as "b*stards", "pr*cks" and "hard-ass*s". Of course, they're also often referred to as presidents, successful businessmen, defensive linemen, surgeons, owners of EFL schools, used car salesmen. insurance salesmen and New Mexico state troopers (among others). Which reminds me - I had a tour of the Police Academy yesterday, conducted by one Officer Mike Meir. Officer Meir doesn't "walk"; he swaggers. Good thing that while he was showing me around he didn't say, " Walk this way" - I doubt I'd have been able to resist.
Regards,
John |
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Gordon
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 5309
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2004 1:21 am Post subject: |
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Capergirl said
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| A man, on the other hand, couldn't conceive of giving up his Saturday golf game |
Well I did, along with tennis, so what does that make me? Both parents make sacrifices, parenting is not a one-way street. I know that you know this, but that isn't what your post sounded like. |
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arioch36
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 3589
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| Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2004 2:44 am Post subject: |
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| Fathers father!! And inthe first year of infancy, the mom is needed in essential ways the father is not. I would say beyond the first year, but this study seems to think otherwise. |
Soorry, not quite the right quote, i'm lazy
Capergirl pointed to some of the flaws in these studies. being in China, I no longer have my tons of reading that I have at my house. If women is needed in some essential way, then we should compare between women with good results with children, and women with bad results. What is really essential?
When you start studying what is essential in the first year of infancy (as opposed to the secone year of infancy  ) You can see that many of the neccessities can be provided by man or woman. Direct breast feeding is not neccessary. Security, being held closely, stimulation, etc. are.
On the other hand, back in the beginnings of the US feminist movement the founders like to proport that men and women were the same, except men were bigger. Now the science clearly shows that is is not the case, that regardless of upbringing, men and women think, act, and react differently. So perhaps there are things men are better at and women are better at. Is this idea possible to be accepted?
In china, many young parents, men and women, really have no idea how to raise children, and usually give them to their grandparents. |
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arioch36
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 3589
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| Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2004 2:52 am Post subject: |
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Are woman still discriminated against? In China, it is very PC to hire a woman for a middle level job in the public sector (Schools, bureaus) I would say that if a man and a woman had equal merits, the woman would be chosen. I would say the same is true in the US, and especially the miltary, where I saw this a lot. But the top top positions are still clearly men only. (Go Elizabeth Dole!)
On the lower level, if a man and woman wants to work at say a "Friendly's" (US Ice cream, sandwhich chain restaurant) The best jobs of waiting tables will be given to women. Men can wash the dishes.
But at the best restaurants, men are waiting tables (and men still wash the dishes) Why?
In China, women usually dominate the government approved churches (ie Pastors) but in the "underground" churches the opposite is true. Why?
Are all four of these discrimination? Natural selection? Are men by nature better sutied for some roles, and women by nature better suited to some jobs? |
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Egas
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| Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2004 2:59 am Post subject: |
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| Laura C wrote: |
Predictable comment, Egas. Women do not/should not have power or even equality, as they will just abuse it by being catty, b*tchy etc. Perhaps we should then generalise that men should not have power as they abuse it by being 'aggressive' -- after all, none of the conflicts/wars etc in the world at present were started by us jealous catty women.
It does not take 'balls' to make a comment like yours, just ignorance. And to say that women will 'snarl' at you for saying it is an unfair argument, as it tries to automatically lessen the credibility of someone who dares to disagree with you.
L |
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arioch36
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 3589
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| Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2004 3:01 am Post subject: |
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| Why would they want to give up the freedom of being the non-nurturing provider rather than the primary caregiver? That would mean more work and a much, much bigger commitment on their part. It would also require selflessness. No offense guys, but men are not known for their selflessness (although I will concede that they are improving in this area in recent years). |
I'm not sure i buy this. Yes, men do waste their weekends watching sports. But this is a two way streets. Again, i wish I had my studies with me. I don't, so you will have to decide if this strikes a chord.
Many times it is the woman who cannot accept the idea of man as a more active caregiver. Actually, I think 20/20 did a good series on this, it is much more vivid when you se it on tv. Whenever the man attempted to do things like dress the child, do the dishes, laundry, etc, the wife would deride his attempts, tell him he doesn't know what he is doing and tell him to go sit down. Having men as a more active caregiver is not the one sided problem it appears to be.
Many men feel trapped in their jobs, want to spend more time with their kids. But promotions don't come based on just giving 40 hours, but on going the extra mile.
Come overseas, and you will have a new found appreciation for the western male |
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Egas
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| Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2004 3:07 am Post subject: |
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| Laura C wrote: |
Predictable comment, Egas. Women do not/should not have power or even equality, as they will just abuse it by being catty, b*tchy etc. Perhaps we should then generalise that men should not have power as they abuse it by being 'aggressive' -- after all, none of the conflicts/wars etc in the world at present were started by us jealous catty women.
It does not take 'balls' to make a comment like yours, just ignorance. And to say that women will 'snarl' at you for saying it is an unfair argument, as it tries to automatically lessen the credibility of someone who dares to disagree with you.
L |
The only ignornce shown is yours Laura. My post was short, but you either stopped reading after the first few lines or merely selected the parts that confirmed your belief that men are persecuting women. I suspect that you found it "predictable" because you seek and find sexism eveywhere you look. Go back and read what I wrote, properly this time. It quite clearly states that in an ideal world men and women would share power. I also quite clearly makes generalisations about the negative qualities of BOTH male and female dominated schools/workplaces. You ignored all the male generalisations, and selected and focused upon all the female generalisations and concluded that it was anti-women. The kind of victim mentality you show doesn't help the cause of female empowerment in the modern world, because you have need to find persecution where none exists. If you want the victim tag, then wear it. But I won't be around to watch you whine, because I've got better things to do.
Feminists have been making generalisations about patriarchal power structures for decades. For instance they have argued that the male will to power, need for control, colonialism, and mechanistic/Newtonian science (including the reductive constructonism upon which it is predicated), all have derivatives within patriarchal institutions, social structures and even the psychological and neurobiological nature of men. Now why can't a man make a little generalisaton about women and power without having his balls extracated by angry women? Isn't that just a slght case of, dare I say, inequality? 
Last edited by Egas on Sun Jan 18, 2004 3:45 am; edited 4 times in total |
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Gordon
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 5309
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2004 3:22 am Post subject: |
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| Arioch, can't say I agree with you. I don't believe my wife has ever complained about me taking a more active role in child rearing. I think a woman would have to be pretty insecure to feel threatned that her husband was taking over. "Please honey can I change the poopy diaper?" "No, dear sit down and relax, this is a mother's job. Just read the paper." (Sarcasm) |
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