Job Discussion Forums

vikuk · Joined: 23 May 2007 Posts: 1842

With an F - I believe the only money you're legally allowed to be paid by your Chinese host are expenses.
This point gives your employer a lot of potential leeway to break wage promises - and the F holding FT with absolutely no option but to accept the shafting.

Another point to note with an F - is that the "illegal" variety don't just originate from a hole in the wall in HK - but, as I already stated, they can come from any firm that's allowed to use an overseas business consultant - I know of FT's who have been issued an F through a digital camera import company.
So if your employer says they can get an F in China - just make sure about which company has written the invitation letter. I'm pretty sure some FT's are under the illusion they have a legal F for teaching - since its been issued by their local PSB - where in fact their legal permission to conduct business is connected to a trade far removed from teaching Idea

nickpellatt · Joined: 08 Dec 2006 Posts: 1522

Vik - Im not trying to be hazy, I just recall a recent thread where someone had posted links or commented that F visas can be legal for short term contracts? I did try and find the thread but a search of F visa in the search engine throws up too many results.

My understanding of it was similar to the comments posted by TexasHighway. I do take a casual and passing interest in such threads as I actually worked on an F visa whilst in Hainan. I do realise that it is generally accepted as being a bit dodgy, but I was sure I saw a thread that it was actually legal in some circumstances, not just a habitual practice.

I never had an 'under the counter' visa though. On each occasion I had to visit the visa office in Haikou with my colleges FAO and had to physically meet the issuing officer via an appointment. I think that was why I was never worried about it at the time ... it certainly seemed a legit process and I didnt know anything else.

Ill keep looking for the thread with definitive links ... If I find it, Ill share it.

nickpellatt · Joined: 08 Dec 2006 Posts: 1522

vikuk · Joined: 23 May 2007 Posts: 1842

nickpellatt · Joined: 08 Dec 2006 Posts: 1522

Close, you have a good memory Vik - I first went to China on a 'voluntourism' program. That was 3 months from Sep - Dec in 2006. Whilst I was there in the relative security of the volunteer group, I hawked myself around some other colleges in the area.

Although there wasnt a position for me at that time, I did a demo class and was offered a position if I returned 3 months later to co-incide with a new term. I came back to the UK in that time, and returned did 3 months later. My volunteer role was at a middle school in the same town, and didnt have a direct connection to the place that eventually employed me. I came back to China with a negative HIV test that I was advised to take in the UK prior to appointment, and signed the regular contract, similar to contracts I see posted here.

I didnt know anything about visa at that time, and as mentioned, I never questioned it as being 'dodgy' at the time as I had to make personal appearances at the visa office with my FAO. I have since realised the visa differences, and do understand that it is commonplace for many teachers to work on F visas ... and not just commonplace but almost accepted practice in some places.

You did suggest

vikuk · Joined: 23 May 2007 Posts: 1842

nickpellatt · Joined: 08 Dec 2006 Posts: 1522

Easy Tiger Rolling Eyes

This was my first post in the thread, which shows my stance quite clearly.

quote]Its a 6 month contract. Isnt there some chatter around the forums about F visa being acceptable for 6 month contracts? On the basis its only a 6 month gig I 'believe' the F visa is fine. [/quote]

I even bracketed believe with apostrophe's to indicate I wasnt 100% sure.

No need to apologise over re-telling my China experience incorrectly though. As you can see from my post, my China experience wasnt quite as you posted, and could therefore be a valid one to share.

I have been looking through threads to find a link to the legality of F visa for short term work ... I was perhaps wrong in my memory of definitive guidelines being posted. I can only find posts that suggest things could/should be OK...rather than will be.

What was interesting ... seeing as you are baiting me at the mo Very Happy

Are these suggestions on the very same subject posted fairly recently -

vikuk · Joined: 23 May 2007 Posts: 1842

Nick - if any of those friends working on F's are on one year contracts or are receiving wages - then always in the back of their minds is the thought that they might be involved in a PSB check.
If they are caught as illegal and deported - then its good-bye China -and with their illegal alien status hanging over them there's the chance that they'll never be allowed to re-enter the country!!!!

In terms of guaranteeing the FT a good legal job - Z visas are also a crap-shoot (especially in terms of being tied to a contract) - but ,at least if the brown stuff hits the fan, when you're teaching on one of these you can't be deported - and can prize yourself out of a situation and return to fight another day.

The fact that the authorities have cut the supply of easy over-the-counter F visa from HK indicates not only that they were trying patch up a potential security breach - but must be aware of the type visa abuse that goes on when an FT teaches for a wage on an F.
The other factor involved is the growing awareness of the dubious quality of some of the foreigners that are attracted to China (in the recent past an Ft was accused of sexually abusing female students in Shenzhen area - we have one member of the forums who spent time in prison) - especially to bottom of the work pyramid professions such as EFL. Although the process that applies to getting the job candidate a Z is not real insurance of quality - the authorities view regulations of that involve criminal check, STD test, and educational qualification as a way of weeding out the potentially undesirable. There are still ways of getting around these rules - but the plain fact of the matter is that they seem to be getting tighter - and the chances of getting shafted from illegally working for a wage on an F seems to be getting greater!!!!

But then again a Newbie could take up Nick's anecdotal advice of doing volunteer teaching on an F during the pre-olympic period - and follow the lead of his mysterious friends who teach on F's - who I suppose are meant to provide evidence about how safe this practice is - and come work for a wage in China as illegal aliens Rolling Eyes

The Great Wall of Whiner · Joined: 29 Jan 2003 Posts: 4946 Location: Blabbing

There are a lot of jobs out there now paying 10,000RMB+ a month with the same working hours so I'd have to say it's entirely up to you.

Personally, I wouldn't take a job that pays less than 10,000 a month. but that's just me.

Sinobear · Joined: 24 Aug 2004 Posts: 1269 Location: Purgatory

Nick, you are referring to this thread: teaching with F (business) visa : where condoned ?
I am the one who said that teaching on an F visa is usually okay if under six months under certain conditions. It really depends on how you have your contract worded.

And so it goes.

nickpellatt · Joined: 08 Dec 2006 Posts: 1522

Sino - I did see your comments yesterday when I was trying to find a thread ... I read through some of the older ones. I did think I had seen a definitive statement with a link that showed F visa was acceptable under certain circumstances ... But perhaps I was mistaken. I didnt copy and paste your comments (or similar ones from others) as I was really hoping to find a rock solid concrete link. I cant.